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Forums - Nintendo - Is Miyamoto losing his touch?

Metallox said:

Are we sure he was that important for Sticker Star's development? Sure, he made the declaration, but that still doesn't convince me that Intelligent Systems is the main responsible of the Paper Mario fiasco.

 

He rejected their TTYD sequel and forced them to make it into something else that is without story characters etc., how is that not the most important factor?



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Read some comments here, its an interesting conversation.

I think Miyamoto's involvement and success rate is a decent reflection of Nintendo as a whole. Some things to consider. Because Iwata was a developer himself and yet above Miyamoto, you could say that in the time he was CEO, the creative guys were running the shop. Since the top guys decided to focus on innovation on the hardware level with the game-pad being the focus, yet staying in line with Nintendos other values in terms of price competitiveness, there had to be drawbacks in terms of horse power to the Wii-U. Now since the gamepad is the only competitive advantage to the Wii-U+Nintendo IP, Miyamoto's reason for 'forcing/innovating' game mechanics to mold them into the gamepad was the only option moving forward. Sadly this sometimes works [found it awesome in AC4:BF] and sometimes goes horribly wrong as some others point out in Starfox. Couple that with the issue that the system is under-powered and shunned by most AAA publishers/developers and you have a recipe for where we are at today.

I sold my Wii-U about a year ago for the above reasons, even though I had some fun with the thing.

On the other hand, its very hard as a developer on the top level to stay successful consistently. Look at EA and their sports titles, every few years even they mess it up, even though its the same damn game.  Nintendo must not just innovate on mechanics as is their tradition, but innovate everywhere: mechanics, graphics [lightyears behind engine tech], hardware HP, aesthetics/art, fresh game design concepts [splatoon not originated internally afaik], not just rehashed tweaks of their own.

-M



Pikmin was Miyamoto's swan song.



Hiku said:
KLAMarine said:

A lot of this is still very much speculative ( may be referring to... I assumed... perhaps... Would be surprised... remains to be seen... I can only imagine... Would be strange... it looks like... ).

Like I've said before, I find it infinitely more efficient for people to focus on the end product rather than speculating on events happening behind closed doors.

Right, but there's a difference between baseless assumptions that don't make sense, and ones that are based on logical observations.
Based on what we know of Miyamoto's history in Nintendo, and human behaviour, do you believe that if Nintendo came to him with an idea and he told them he thought it was a bad idea, that they would still make him work on the project? I very much doubt it.

You doubt it but how certain are you?

Hiku said:

But honestly, there's no need to debate this point. Because the second point (below) is more interesting, as we have a quote from Miyamoto about it.

I personally am interested in how things came to be, rather than just how they are. If I didn't start analyzing this situation, I wouldn't have learned about the interview where Miyamoto said it was his idea to create a Starfox game based on the Gamepad functions.

What quote are you referring to?

Hiku said:
KLAMarine said:

And I reiterate he didn't make the new Star Fox game alone. Game development is a collaborative effort, I'm sure you know. Maybe it was Miyamoto who screwed things up or perhaps it was decisions or expectations from higher up that put the team at a disadvantage or maybe some team members were new hires and had trouble contributing to their fullest capabilities? Maybe Miyamoto, as supervising director, ruled with an iron fist and came down hard on the two directors or perhaps he allowed the two directors a free rein?

I have not the slightest clue which it could have been, I was not there to confirm for myself either way and I suspect you and many others speculating endlessly on English-speaking forums were not there either.

I'm not saying he made the game alone, or that he deserves all the blame for whatever people may not like about it. What I'm saying is that he was the one who decided that Starfox should be made as one of the games that would showcase the Gamepad's functions in a profound way.

Based on what?

Hiku said:

This imposes some creative restrictions on everyone involved in the development right from the start. They had to make distinct use of the Gamepad's functionality beyond anything we've seen before. Could the rest of the developers have made a better game in spite of that? Maybe. But we have to be sympathetic to the fact that they were working on the game under those conditions.
And the reason this is brought up is because people think Miyamoto is out of touch with what most gamers want these days.
This wouldn't be an issue if Miyamoto was just some random producer/director. But precisely because of his opinion is so valued with Nintendo, it becomes a point of concern for some people.

How valued?



Miyamotoo said:
Kerotan said:

If they still had their midas touch they'd be able to support two platforms separately.  But they've lost it and are now accepting that they can't.  

 

Last gen :

260m Nintendo consoles 

This gen: 

80m (generous estimate)

Next gen (unified) 

I think it will decrease again.  

 

As I said they're losing their touch. I expect a strong 2017/2018 but their same old same old failings to return after that. 

Last Nintendo gen was best selling console generation ever, so it not exactly fair to compare this gen with it. This gen they had their first HD console with they had lotsa problems and handheld that was very affected by mobile devices.

This gen proved them they cant suport any longer two completly difrent platforms, but its not about they lost touch, its about market that changed, games are today more complex and require more time and resources than ever before, they need far more time for Wii U games than they needed for Wii games not to mention fact that Wii is basically GC with motion controls. Sony also can't support two different platform and that's why they completely abandoned Vita and they totally focused to PS4, are you saying Sony also lost touch!?

Regardless that, here is point about games, and Nintendo definitely did not lost their touch, they made so many great games this gen.

Yes I believe they lost their "magic" touch.  That ability they had to support 2 platforms at once.  They failed to move with the market.  They could have invented the iPhone instead of the 3DS and continued to dominate the mobile gaming market.  But they didn't.  Their vision was limited and it's cost them.  

 

We're not talking about Sony because that's off topic but since you brought it up,  of course Sony lost their touch with handhelds.  They could have done much better with vita for a start but again the real market was being the first to create a smartphone like the iPhone.  They dabbled with Xperia play devices but it was never good enough.  

 

So yes they lost their touch with handhelds but they rediscovered it with the home comsoles. 

 



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Hiku said:

Though I asked you if you think they'd force him to work on a project he considers to be a bad idea.

Would they make him? If the higher ups thought it a good idea, maybe they'd make him? I don't know, I've never worked at Nintendo.

I will say that I have held jobs in the past where if I disagreed with the higher ups and disobeyed their decisions, I'd get punished if not fired.

Hiku said:
KLAMarine said:

What quote are you referring to?

The one I'm going to cite in my next paragraph.

KLAMarine said:

Based on what?

"SM: We spent more than one year on numerous experiments using the Wii U GamePad, and in the initial experiments, we conducted tests with 3D graphics on screen using Pikmin and Star Fox systems as a trial.

While manipulating the RC aeroplane-like flying experience or creating the mechanism to appreciate the overall and partial views together, it made me think I should continue to create Star Fox utilising these elements. We fixed the basic form in six months, and then commenced the one and a half year development process."

Nintendo had tasked Miyamoto's development team to create games based on the Gamepad. And the idea to have one of the Gamepad focused projects be Starfox came to Miyamoto there.

Not just Miyamoto: again, pay attention to his ( or rather, the translator's ) numerous usage of the word "we". Apparently other input contributed to SF0's final design.

Hiku said:
KLAMarine said:

How valued?

I'm all for having a productive discussion, but these "How valued?" "How certain?" "Have you worked with Shigeru?" are not going to add any meaningful context to the discussion.
Instead of posing a lot of leading questions, you can just say what you want to say. But these should not be the focal point of your argument.

I find the questions meaningful: when trying to evaluate Miyamoto's output within an organization staffed by many other people, I find them to be relevant.



he spent most of his time on Zelda U which he didn't even release.



Einsam_Delphin said:
Metallox said:

Are we sure he was that important for Sticker Star's development? Sure, he made the declaration, but that still doesn't convince me that Intelligent Systems is the main responsible of the Paper Mario fiasco.

 

He rejected their TTYD sequel and forced them to make it into something else that is without story characters etc., how is that not the most important factor?

From what I read, they did a survey at Club Nintendo24 and apparently not everyone was interested in the story, at least when they surveyed Super Paper Mario. And even the devs like Kudo agreed so it appears to be more of a collective thing. This is apparently coming from Iwata Asks so take that for what you will.



Kai_Mao said:

From what I read, they did a survey at Club Nintendo24 and apparently not everyone was interested in the story, at least when they surveyed Super Paper Mario. And even the devs like Kudo agreed so it appears to be more of a collective thing. This is apparently coming from Iwata Asks so take that for what you will.

 

It is not a collective thing. Again, Sticker Star was originally being developed to have a story among everything else that makes Paper Mario Paper Mario, meaning the developers had the right idea, up until Miyamoto got his hands it telling them his ideas were better. Assuming that survey took place before development, that means they rightfully ignored it since it clearly has no credibility and at most it was just a small factor in Miyamoto's decision since story is far from the only problem with Sticker Star.



Hiku said:
KLAMarine said:

Would they make him? If the higher ups thought it a good idea, maybe they'd make him? I don't know, I've never worked at Nintendo.

I will say that I have held jobs in the past where if I disagreed with the higher ups and disobeyed their decisions, I'd get punished if not fired.

That's why we're putting Miyamoto's carreer in context. The higher ups don't have his track record with games. He's considered a genius by his peers, etc.

But do the higher ups consider him a genius? Sure they probably don't have a track record with games and they might not have cared, they might have just wanted to make money and be rid of excess Wii U stock.

Of course I can only speculate on events behind closed doors with no means of verifying any of my suspicions.

Hiku said:

But if you find it plausible that they would force him to do it even after hearing that it's a bad idea from Miyamoto himself, that tells me what I need to know.

If you know of a way to eliminate the possibility beyond a shadow of a doubt, let me know. Maybe you have secret emails between Miyamoto and key people or secret recordings of Miyamoto sitting atop his throne within Nintendo HQ?

Hiku said:
KLAMarine said:

Not just Miyamoto: again, pay attention to his ( or rather, the translator's ) numerous usage of the word "we". Apparently other input contributed to SF0's final design.

No, just Miyamoto. He said "it made me think I should continue to create Starfox utilizing these elements". I'm talking about who came up with the idea of having Starfox become an actual game as part of the Gamepad project. Not who worked on it.
Because Miyamoto wanted to make a Starfox game that heavily focused on the Gamepad, the developers were forced to design the game around this, whether they liked it or not.

And as someone who has developed software before, I can tell you that many things can change between conception of an idea and implementation of that idea as other people begin to provide their own input and exert their own influence.

Hiku said:
KLAMarine said:

I find the questions meaningful: when trying to evaluate Miyamoto's output within an organization staffed by many other people, I find them to be relevant.

My estimate on how valued it may be is irrelevant.
And you repeatedly asking a bunch of people on Vgchartz if they've worked with Miyamoto is pointless as you already know what the answer will be.

Just trying to get people to think about the issue at hand.