By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - The Division Downgrade

Tagged games:

fatslob-:O said:
Cobretti2 said:

Unisoft published both games and both got downgraded. That is the point I am making.

if you think shadows and objects pointin at different directions is the only difference (one I don't care about) then you need to wath tat video a few more times.

I did and all these posts I'm getting on these forums are near the level of conspiracy theories ... 

Apparently having volumetric mist at different locations and having more reflections occluded by snow constitutes as a downgrade ... 

Yeap, shading the snow is worth nothing compared to having reflections when you've gotta account for sub-surface scattering in the former ...

Just to explain it to you...

The kind of effects shown in the original trailer are very hardware demanding. The low-level lighting with the contrasting bright light sources, and reflections, and glows are very nice but very demanding effects. The first trailer is clearly showing multiple "global" light sources ie; radiating light. There's two ways to display light in a game. 

a) actually have the light interacting with in game objects using a light engine.
b) hand program the shadows for specific objects that you want to be highlighted.

The previous requires a lot of work, so that light sources know how to interact with the 3d modeling. The latter requires effort for a smaller portion.

This goes hand in hand with reflections in the water on the ground. In order for the reflections to perform properly, the 3d area has to be programmed for it, and the effects have to be implemented. Sometimes, this can really bog a game down because it then has to display twice what it would show without a reflection. 

When you "change" from something that is seen as a very nice, but very code-heavy painstaking display, and replace it with a simpler, less demanding artistic choice, it is seen as a downgrade. It is seen that way because despite what your personal tastes are, the previous trailer can objectively be called a more realistic version. While the actual gameplay is still very realistic, people notice things that aren't in real life like shadows, global lighting, reflections, glow, etc.

 

 

TL:DR 
It takes a lot of work to make a game "more realistic". So when a trailer that's seen as VERY realistic is then released looking LESS realistic, we assume they cut out features, which makes us think downgrade.



Around the Network
BraLoD said:
pokoko said:

I am being absurd, as it was exaggerated for humor.  However ... you do realize that it's not an advertisement, right?  The McDonalds example does not apply at all.  

Games shown before release are works in progress.  EVERYONE should realize that.

Also, regardless of you being okay with cinematic teasers, they always get complaints.  Everything gets complaints.  No one is going to pull a Fallout 4 with a new IP, either.

Yeah, that was what I meant xP

Anyway, it is advertisement, it's advertising a product to come, even as it is no claim the final build will be exactly that way, it's still a choice to falsely depict something, usually with something of a better quality than what will be achieved.

People pre-orders games, it's a business practice, there are lots of people buying that game that is being showcased, not the one delivered on its release date, several people make their choice and pay for something that'll come on a lowered quality later.

That's not right, I don't support that kind of practice and I'm all for people calling them out on those kinds of situations.
People do have a reason to do that, no need to mock them, they are not making it out of thin air.

Oh, I agree, they shouldn't do it, but only because there are so many people who cannot understand that the developers are trying to show what they are aiming for as a project.  Personally, I want to know.  I want to see what kind of game they're trying to make and what kind of goals they're setting.  I can fully understand that projects are going to change and evolve as systems and programming are added.  I know that it's a projected result and I definitely want developers try to make a better game than to be bound by projected visuals.  For me, it seems obvious that changes will happen.  Unfortunately, the people who complain about everything are going to ruin that.  They're going to make it so that publishers are too scared to show off anything and it's going to suck.  And then they're going to whine about how boring E3 is with only teaser trailers shown.



theprof00 said:

Just to explain it to you...

The kind of effects shown in the original trailer are very hardware demanding. The low-level lighting with the contrasting bright light sources, and reflections, and glows are very nice but very demanding effects. The first trailer is clearly showing multiple "global" light sources ie; radiating light. There's two ways to display light in a game. 

a) actually have the light interacting with in game objects using a light engine.
b) hand program the shadows for specific objects that you want to be highlighted.

The previous requires a lot of work, so that light sources know how to interact with the 3d modeling. The latter requires effort for a smaller portion.

This goes hand in hand with reflections in the water on the ground. In order for the reflections to perform properly, the 3d area has to be programmed for it, and the effects have to be implemented. Sometimes, this can really bog a game down because it then has to display twice what it would show without a reflection. 

When you "change" from something that is seen as a very nice, but very code-heavy painstaking display, and replace it with a simpler, less demanding artistic choice, it is seen as a downgrade. It is seen that way because despite what your personal tastes are, the previous trailer can objectively be called a more realistic version. While the actual gameplay is still very realistic, people notice things that aren't in real life like shadows, global lighting, reflections, glow, etc. 

TL:DR 
It takes a lot of work to make a game "more realistic". So when a trailer that's seen as VERY realistic is then released looking LESS realistic, we assume they cut out features, which makes us think downgrade.

@Bold Again with the vagueness. BTW it's "emssive" light that their showing and it's still in the game ... 

Define "interacting", practically all lights in every AAA engine are interacting with the materials to do some physically based shading. "Hand program" shadows ? Do you mean pre-baked shadows or the global illumination, well what is it exactly ? 

For the reflections do you mean you have to bake in the cubemaps ? You don't have to do that anymore but most of the reflections shown in the original trailer are "screen space" and are available via the "Local Reflection Quality" option on PC. 

Both the game and trailer are very far away from "realistic" since they don't even do any form of ray tracing that is not in screen space so judging the accuracy of both is moot ... 



BraLoD said:

That "may" definitely means does not, don't pick a word out of a phrase to make it sound what it isn't.
The MAY makes connection to something not happening and being a weak point BUT other things are pointed as strong points.

That phrase is a confirmation of at least the Beta is not in the same level of the E3 2013 presentation, to Digital Foundry.

I just put it into italic and underlined so you can find easily where the BUT picks up the contrast of the MAY idea.

I really hope you won't go for that route of trying to using a ridiculous excuse to not to admit being wrong about something when you put me as a conspiracy theorist while trying to make a flawed point.

All that matters is the definition ... 

What if your wrong ? Your not exactly a computer graphics expert or a graphics programmer, are you ? If DF finds no downgrade will you concede ? I know I will but I'm only here to defend a possible unjust evaluation against Unisoft Massive ...



BraLoD said:

Yeah, I'm done here, this became nonsense, you want to discuss a word literal meaning by itself and not the actual phrase it's put into, from now on it's not worth anymore, I'm sorry, I'm also pretty sure you know very well what you are doing here.

But to answer your question , yes, if Digital Foundry mentions all effects technical quality are kept just like they were in the E3 2013 presentation and there was no downgrade whatsoever, which they already confirmed to not to be the case on the Beta as it's not matching it, I'll concede, you are right that I'm no expert in the matter, but it's even clearer that way that you don't even need one to point the kind of difference of those two.

Feel free to deliver me DF full tech review link in anyway (quote, wall, private) if you find the need to do it.

@Bold They didn't give the conclusion yet! Yes you do need point the difference in a comparison cause how are we supposed to come at that conclusion ?

BTW I never called you a conspiracy theorists if you have any hard feelings ... 

I'm just tired of mob mentalities ...



Around the Network

UbiSoft is one of the biggest offenders where bullshot footage is concerned, The Division was shown at the same time as Watch_Dogs, it looked BETTER than Watch_Dogs at that time, and Watch_Dogs had a highly publicized and substantial visual downgrade. Who did NOT see this coming? I'm surprised Division looks as good as it does, to be honest.



I don't even know what to say anymore. Ubisoft does this frequently and always get away with it. It was just reported that The Division was their biggest launch ever... but maybe they are not wrong; if there are so many people that still buy it at launch, maybe gamers think downgrades and big patches are totally okay.



Bet with Teeqoz for 2 weeks of avatar and sig control that Super Mario Odyssey would ship more than 7m on its first 2 months. The game shipped 9.07m, so I won

Not surprising tbh, Ubisoft has done this before.



                                                                                     

pokoko said:

The final product is different than a mockup from three years ago? Goodness.

This is one area where developers have to be very frustrated with the entitlement of some gamers.

(Developer show cinematic teaser video)
"NO! We want gameplay video! Show us gameplay!"
"But ... but this is still early development, so many things will change ..."
"GAMEPLAY!@! STOP LYING TO US WITH CINEMATIC TEASERS!!"
"Okay, then, if this is what you want ... here is some mockup gameplay we put together using projected settings. The finished project is still years away, though, and any number of things--."
"WOW, THANK YOU!"

(Game launches)
"What the hell! This is a downgrade! THE SHADOWS ARE DIFFERENT!!"

Pretty much



fatslob-:O said:
Ruler said:

well changing things up can result into worse visual representation

Well then I guess we better doom every game that's going to release as "downgraded" ... 

Uncharted 4, Quantum Break, Horizon Zero Dawn, Gears of War 4, etc ...

those games didnt look worse after the change