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Forums - Movies & TV - The Force Awakens sucks! *MAJOR SPOILERS*

padib said:

So the planet is exploding, Kylo is distraught from murdering his father to the point where he can't stop a bow shot, and he's having fun with Finn.

I'm expected to be impressed by this character?


Dakon already covered this with you, but yeah. He's taking his anger out on Finn and the planet isnt being destroyed at that point. It's entirely stable.

Kylo calls him out on being a traitor, fights him one handed for a chunk of the fight, showboats, knocks him to the ground and lets him get up, pins him up against a tree and tortures him with the cross guard. Within 5 seconds of Finn getting his lucky shot in, Kylo has disarmed him and sliced his spine.

This is a character that throughout the film is trying to show people how powerful he is. Trying to prove himself. It fits entirely with how he's been portrayed throughout the movie. A very talented amateur, yet to complete his training, thinking he is more than what he is. When he came across a competant adversary, Rey, he was exposed. Not just in the lightsaber fight, but in the interrogation. 



                            

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Carl2291 said:
padib said:

So the planet is exploding, Kylo is distraught from murdering his father to the point where he can't stop a bow shot, and he's having fun with Finn.

I'm expected to be impressed by this character?


Dakon already covered this with you, but yeah. He's taking his anger out on Finn and the planet isnt being destroyed at that point. It's entirely stable.

Kylo calls him out on being a traitor, fights him one handed for a chunk of the fight, showboats, knocks him to the ground and lets him get up, pins him up against a tree and tortures him with the cross guard. Within 5 seconds of Finn getting his lucky shot in, Kylo has disarmed him and sliced his spine.

This is a character that throughout the film is trying to show people how powerful he is. Trying to prove himself. It fits entirely with how he's been portrayed throughout the movie. A very talented amateur, yet to complete his training, thinking he is more than what he is. When he came across a competant adversary, Rey, he was exposed. Not just in the lightsaber fight, but in the interrogation. 

I don't care what some leaked script says, I'll comment on what I saw in the movie. Kylo Ren suffers from the same issue as Kilgrave and Darren Cross - weakened by emotion. Basically, their downfall is that they weren't smart enough to finish things quickly when they could. They are weak emotionally and physically.



padib said:

I already explained why him ending at a draw in the fight with Rey does not make sense. http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=7690413

The planet wasn't quaking yet, okay. It doesn't fix all the other issues I mentioned.

"Perhaps the world wasn't quaking just yet, but the planet is under attack by Rebels, the shield is down, Chewie blew up the area where Han was mudered (to weaken the defense system?), Kylo was escaping wounded.

I don't see how he would be in a mental place or position to torture a weak adversary."

Also, what is he proving to who? He just "permanently" wounded Finn and is about to slain Rey. I'm not sure he's intending to prove anything to anyone alive.


It was his job to find Rey. The planet being under attack and shield being down happened long before they were fighting. Snoke sent him to recruit her, so he wasn't just about to stop hunting her down when he saw her up on the high ledge. He wasn't escaping, he was doing his job.

When he sees Finn, he takes his anger and frustration out on him. Its easily explained by him shouting traitor and not finishing him when he knocks him to the ground the first time. 

Lawlight said:

I don't care what some leaked script says, I'll comment on what I saw in the movie. Kylo Ren suffers from the same issue as Kilgrave and Darren Cross - weakened by emotion. Basically, their downfall is that they weren't smart enough to finish things quickly when they could. They are weak emotionally and physically.


Nothing I said in that post was about the script, it was all movie.

But yeah, you basically said what I said earlier. The fact that he is a character that has signficant development throughout the movie puts him directly above the likes of Maul and Dooku. Its a character that is trying his best to live up to his grandfather, yet falls short at every possible hurdle.



                            

Carl2291 said:
Lawlight said:

I don't care what some leaked script says, I'll comment on what I saw in the movie. Kylo Ren suffers from the same issue as Kilgrave and Darren Cross - weakened by emotion. Basically, their downfall is that they weren't smart enough to finish things quickly when they could. They are weak emotionally and physically.


Nothing I said in that post was about the script, it was all movie.

But yeah, you basically said what I said earlier. The fact that he is a character that has signficant development throughout the movie puts him directly above the likes of Maul and Dooku. Its a character that is trying his best to live up to his grandfather, yet falls short at every possible hurdle.

There's a difference between character development (which wasn't significant, btw) and good character development. Also, does he not know that his grandfather turned to the light?





Carl2291 said:
padib said:

So the planet is exploding, Kylo is distraught from murdering his father to the point where he can't stop a bow shot, and he's having fun with Finn.

I'm expected to be impressed by this character?


Dakon already covered this with you, but yeah. He's taking his anger out on Finn and the planet isnt being destroyed at that point. It's entirely stable.

Kylo calls him out on being a traitor, fights him one handed for a chunk of the fight, showboats, knocks him to the ground and lets him get up, pins him up against a tree and tortures him with the cross guard. Within 5 seconds of Finn getting his lucky shot in, Kylo has disarmed him and sliced his spine.

This is a character that throughout the film is trying to show people how powerful he is. Trying to prove himself. It fits entirely with how he's been portrayed throughout the movie. A very talented amateur, yet to complete his training, thinking he is more than what he is. When he came across a competant adversary, Rey, he was exposed. Not just in the lightsaber fight, but in the interrogation. 

Bah! Nobody who doesn't want to like the movie would accept that interpretation! ;)





“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

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I just can't believe how absolutely ridiculous this argument is...like at all.

This is Star Wars. As it was stated a thousand times by Lucas in the past 40 years it was written as a space opera for kids, a bubblegum type of story.

The original Star Wars was so full of unexplained plot holes and character underdevelopment that all of those arguments towards this movie just need to be thrown the heck out. It wasn't until another 2 movies came out to explain in more detail, and countless viewings over 20 years with an entire expanded universe created to fill in the gaps.

Still, remove a person from any sort of expanded universe explanations regarding just about anything and it can be torn apart. However, when there are legit, explained reasons in accepted expanded universe they can't just be overlooked. Just like almost any movie or tv series, the plot can be completely destroyed when examined close enough. But also true to real life there are an endless amount of events that occur beyond logical reasoning, because quite simply that's just how life is. It's a terrible exercise picking apart a movie that was not made to be intricate to begin with and was clearly made for both kids and the hardcore fans that cried out for something close to the original. A great many things will be explained as the trilogy continues anyway.

Also, to me it is very clear that the OP overreacted with his initial post, and is now going to heavy lengths to debate his argument in spite of his true feelings due to pride, even if they are still negative to some degree. The movie was not was he was envisioning in his own mind, and when you watch something this big with that kind of mind set it can only set up disappointment.



Magicstorm said:
I just can't believe how absolutely ridiculous this argument is...like at all.

This is Star Wars. As it was stated a thousand times by Lucas in the past 40 years it was written as a space opera for kids, a bubblegum type of story.

The original Star Wars was so full of unexplained plot holes and character underdevelopment that all of those arguments towards this movie just need to be thrown the heck out. It wasn't until another 2 movies came out to explain in more detail, and countless viewings over 20 years with an entire expanded universe created to fill in the gaps.

Still, remove a person from any sort of expanded universe explanations regarding just about anything and it can be torn apart. However, when there are legit, explained reasons in accepted expanded universe they can't just be overlooked. Just like almost any movie or tv series, the plot can be completely destroyed when examined close enough. But also true to real life there are an endless amount of events that occur beyond logical reasoning, because quite simply that's just how life is. It's a terrible exercise picking apart a movie that was not made to be intricate to begin with and was clearly made for both kids and the hardcore fans that cried out for something close to the original. A great many things will be explained as the trilogy continues anyway.

Also, to me it is very clear that the OP overreacted with his initial post, and is now going to heavy lengths to debate his argument in spite of his true feelings due to pride, even if they are still negative to some degree. The movie was not was he was envisioning in his own mind, and when you watch something this big with that kind of mind set it can only set up disappointment.

 

This I can go with - it's a silly movie made for kids or for the Transformers crowd. No reason to expect well developed characters and a plot that makes sense here.



Lawlight said:

There's a difference between character development (which wasn't significant, btw) and good character development. Also, does he not know that his grandfather turned to the light?


I dont know if he knows. I need to read the book. However, since you bring up Vader it reminds be that its also significant development for him.

All throughout the film he is trying to live up to what Vader was. Vaders one weakness was his son, who he simply wouldnt put down. On the other hand Kylo straight up murders his father with little hesitation. In that one moment he did what Vader couldnt do.



                            

Carl2291 said:
Lawlight said:

There's a difference between character development (which wasn't significant, btw) and good character development. Also, does he not know that his grandfather turned to the light?


I dont know if he knows. I need to read the book. However, since you bring up Vader it reminds be that its also significant development for him.

All throughout the film he is trying to live up to what Vader was. Vaders one weakness was his son, who he simply wouldnt put down. On the other hand Kylo straight up murders his father with little hesitation. In that one moment he did what Vader couldnt do.

 

In that case, why is he trying to live up to a character that failed? And Luke or Han wouldn't have told him the story of Vader? Highly unlikely. I'm sure the tales of how Vader killed Palpatine is known to everyone within this universe.



Finally watched VII.  Stayed away because the hype was turning me off.

I feel the acting and the plot was executed much better than in the prequels.  We didn't have any face-palm moments like the Anakin/Padme romance or when Anakin randomly decides to turn to the darkside.  The character's acting felt genuine, organic and not forced which was a really nice change from the prequels.

That said, this movie fell well short of any of the originals in my opinion and it completely failed to recreate the magic of episodes IV and V.  JJ Abrams did exactly what he did with Star Trek: he made an above-average action movie that will please the masses and sell lots of tickets but it will not be something that will go down in history as any kind of masterpiece and it will not restore the franchise to its former glory.

I agree with the OP that this movie basically felt like a remake of episode IV with some cosmetic changes that really only served to weaken the story.  They tried to treat the First Order the same way that the Empire was treated in episode IV: except we already know so much about the Star Wars universe that the First Order feels less like a mysterious and ominous threat then it does like a patchy and poorly explained emperial resurgence group:  how did they get a new Sith? Why did the rebellion fail to extenguish the empire after episode VI?  These were questions that should have been explained in episode VII.  I also had no idea who the imperial senate was that got destoyred in VII because I thought that they were disolved at the beginning of IV.  I felt bad when alderaan got destoyed in IV and I felt the horror that the empire caused through the reactions of Leia and Obi-Wan but when the planets were destoryed in VII I didn't really care: these were just a bunch of faceless planets and nobody in the movie seemed to care that they were gone either.

I also agree that Rey is basically just Han Solo and Luke Skywalker merged into one character.  She also doesn't have any personality flaws which basically makes her superwoman.  I'm sure that this will make the radical feminists happy and will garner glowing reviews from the liberal media, but this makes for very poor story-telling and is a big reason why episode VII is going to be forgotten in a few years.  People (including women) are not going to be able to identify with Rey because she is too "perfect."  Luke and Han were very strong and relatable characters BECAUSE they had obvious flaws and weaknesses which they overcame as the series went on. Heck, even Leia was a much stronger character than Rey because while Leia was also a strong female lead she still relied on Luke and Han for a lot and this put her character into tough spots and allowed for the types of conflicts that exist in people's regular lives:  this made her character relatable and people grew to love her because of this.  I'm sorry but super-woman is not relatable.  Fin also kind of felt like an unnecessary sidekick.