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Personally, I think it's what makes you who you are. Just a combination of unique experiences and perspective that only you have. Whether it's immortal or not, I don't know. I like to think it is.



Twitter: @d21lewis

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Just a fancy way of calling your DNA sequencing something special.



binary solo said:
I think you're pushing sand up hill with this request, OP, since there is no universally agreed definition of spirit as each religious or spiritual philosophy has a different take on it. And then there is the fact that in some philosophies "spirit" and "soul" have different meanings.

For instance, in some philosophies all living things have a "spirit" which is the life force that exists independent of the biological entity. But in those same philosophies only humans have a soul. The main difference is that spirit has no individual consciousness, whereas the soul does have individuality, which remains after the person has died. But these concepts are by no means universally accepted by all people who believe in metaphysical realities.

So given there can be little chance of a general agreement on what is spirit and soul, thern there is little chance of having a meaningful discussion on what spirit and soul does and whether it is detectable or measurable by means of scientific observation and experimentation. If spirit and soul are metaphysical realities, and science is only able to investigate physical reality, then science will never be able to directly observe spirit or soul. Using the instruments of physical science to try to observe metaphysical things is like trying to see radio waves with the human eye. The capability simply does not exist.

There are experiments that can be used to infer something metaphysical, like trying to find out whether the near death experience of floating above your dead body and looking down on the scene is real or imagined. If you are in a controlled space where there is something that could only be observed from above andnot be imagined (like a random number generator on top of someone's head) then if the person experiencing the NDE observes the RNG device this strongly suggests the NDE involved a true out of body experience rather than an imagined / hallucinated one. The problem is it is difficult to create these controlled conditions, so therefore it is hard to test whether NDE's are real or hallucinated. But even then this is not absolute proof, and it also does not explain how the soul or spirit acts or has an effect on the normal living person / creature. All it does is raise more question.

The beauty of definitions is that they are arbitrary, but a necessary starting point in this case to begin understanding why someone may believe in the existence of the spirit/soul. While definitions may vary widely, each one can be put forth for scrutiny. 

Using the instruments of physical science to try to observe metaphysical things is like trying to see radio waves with the human eye. The capability simply does not exist.

Sure. My interest, however, is in how the spirit/soul interacts or supervenes on the physical. This seems to be a common notion put forth by those whom embrace this concept. There should be some measurable effect if there is a connection. In what way can this be quantified? It seems to me that in the past there was a now debunked study that proclaimed that the human body loses X ounces upon death failing to account for various bodily fluids which seep out upon expiring. This was said to be the soul.

I see no efforts these days to produce any semblance of support for these concepts. Lost and relegated to the legends of old, yet still very much in the mind's of the public as a necessary precondition of X religious belief. 



RadiantDanceMachine said:
binary solo said:
I think you're pushing sand up hill with this request, OP, since there is no universally agreed definition of spirit as each religious or spiritual philosophy has a different take on it. And then there is the fact that in some philosophies "spirit" and "soul" have different meanings.

For instance, in some philosophies all living things have a "spirit" which is the life force that exists independent of the biological entity. But in those same philosophies only humans have a soul. The main difference is that spirit has no individual consciousness, whereas the soul does have individuality, which remains after the person has died. But these concepts are by no means universally accepted by all people who believe in metaphysical realities.

So given there can be little chance of a general agreement on what is spirit and soul, thern there is little chance of having a meaningful discussion on what spirit and soul does and whether it is detectable or measurable by means of scientific observation and experimentation. If spirit and soul are metaphysical realities, and science is only able to investigate physical reality, then science will never be able to directly observe spirit or soul. Using the instruments of physical science to try to observe metaphysical things is like trying to see radio waves with the human eye. The capability simply does not exist.

There are experiments that can be used to infer something metaphysical, like trying to find out whether the near death experience of floating above your dead body and looking down on the scene is real or imagined. If you are in a controlled space where there is something that could only be observed from above andnot be imagined (like a random number generator on top of someone's head) then if the person experiencing the NDE observes the RNG device this strongly suggests the NDE involved a true out of body experience rather than an imagined / hallucinated one. The problem is it is difficult to create these controlled conditions, so therefore it is hard to test whether NDE's are real or hallucinated. But even then this is not absolute proof, and it also does not explain how the soul or spirit acts or has an effect on the normal living person / creature. All it does is raise more question.

The beauty of definitions is that they are arbitrary, but a necessary starting point in this case to begin understanding why someone may believe in the existence of the spirit/soul. While definitions may vary widely, each one can be put forth for scrutiny. 

Using the instruments of physical science to try to observe metaphysical things is like trying to see radio waves with the human eye. The capability simply does not exist.

Sure. My interest, however, is in how the spirit/soul interacts or supervenes on the physical. This seems to be a common notion put forth by those whom embrace this concept. There should be some measurable effect if there is a connection. In what way can this be quantified? It seems to me that in the past there was a now debunked study that proclaimed that the human body loses X ounces upon death failing to account for various bodily fluids which seep out upon expiring. This was said to be the soul.

I see no efforts these days to produce any semblance of support for these concepts. Lost and relegated to the legends of old, yet still very much in the mind's of the public as a necessary precondition of X religious belief. 

But what if the effect of spirit / the soul is simply consciousness? Consciousness must be manifested in the physical world through a physical mediuum even if it ultimately resides in / originates from a metaphysical entity. Therefore if spirit is the origin of consciousness it will still appear to us as if consciousness arises from biochemical neural processes, because the brain is either the seat of physical consciousness or the conduit through which spiritual consciousness manifests. The existence of spirit does not require its effect on the physical world to be identifiable and distinct from phenomenon we associate with physical mechanisms. Spirit, therefore, may be hidden in plain sight. It may be plainly manifested in all life by virtue of life existing, yet incapable of being seen because it cannot be isolated from life, which we view as being a purely physical phenomenon.

On somewhat of a flip side, my sister sees dead people, so at least from her perspective spirit is directly perceptable. Whether she's dellusional or gifted will depend on your point of view. She's a lawyer, highly intelligent, and has had a long and successful career, which tends to suggest she's not batshit insane. But then she recently moved to Australia, which somewhat puts her sanity in doubt. But having that experience of dead people does not necessarily anwer your questio of what is spirit and how does it act in the world? In particular because my sister tells all her visitors to go away, so she doesn't seek to facilitate the world of spirit having direct action in the physical world. And anyone who she didn't know in life can't break through to her, though when she was a young girl they could and she had to work hard to block unknowns out? End of the day these personal experiences only have meaning to the individuals concerned and they are believed or not believed based on the theological biases that existed with the person before they hear of such thing. If anyone tries to tell my sister that spirit and the soul don't exist and that individuality ceases at the point of physical death she will firmly but politely disagree, but she has no better idea than you or I how these realities act within people and on the world while people are alive.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

Wright said:

A fabrication created out of fear of death.


This.



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Wright said:
rolltide101x said:
Wright said:

A fabrication created out of fear of death.

Was that really neccessary? If you are not religious fine but done make dumb statements like that because some people think differently than you do


Well, OP asked...I replied. Just because you don't agree doesn't make it a dumb statement. It's the way I see it.

The fear of death is the most primal, pure kind of fear. Humans, as a general rule, don't like what they don't understand, and death itself is a concept that we're not able to fully grasp, let alone comprehend. We like to think there's something after our life, some trascendental purpose that gives death a more gentle, sweet scent, rather than put it as the abrup, dark end that (I think) it is. There's where the spirit comes into; our belief that some kind of soul of us carries on after we're gone.

I see that belief as a fabrication created out of fear of death. I think that once you die, that's it. That's the end. Your consciousness simply fades away, and you cease to exist. There's no soul or spirit that goes on. There's nothing.

 

You can disagree all you want, but it's not a dumb statement, sir. It's my opinion.

But your family, your friends and relatives, memories people have of you, what you achieved, the way you affected the world around you, your output and the things you left behind, that's your spirit. In the same way you could say your spirit is in the things influenced by your existence, whether you're alive or dead.

So you never really die, and if you say there's "nothing" after death, you've been looking at your own existence from a wrong perspective. The existence of any person is not defined by them alone. You are a part of other people, and other people are a part of you.



I saw "spirits" and was hoping this thread would be about liquor.



Feel free to check out my stream on twitch 

LemonSlice said:

But your family, your friends and relatives, memories people have of you, what you achieved, the way you affected the world around you, your output and the things you left behind, that's your spirit. In the same way you could say your spirit is in the things influenced by your existence, whether you're alive or dead.

So you never really die, and if you say there's "nothing" after death, you've been looking at your own existence from a wrong perspective. The existence of any person is not defined by them alone. You are a part of other people, and other people are a part of you.


Mankind might be immortal, but we as individues are nothing. What about all those people that has died throughout the time? Uncountable people that aren't registered in any history book, didn't have any output to give and weren't necessarily part of others, and thus weren't able to leave anything behind, from prehistorical times to the post-modern world we are in now? Those people wouldn't have a spirit going by your way of seeing it, and that mean only certain people with specific criteria can have it, which certainly sounds skewed.



Nogamez said:
A spirit is a ghost. I'm not religious or a spiritual person but yeah to me a 'Spirit' would be a ghost.

That doesn't answer "what is a spirit", because if you asked what a ghost is, someone would say "it's a spirit". That is, defining a spirit as a ghost is just a circular definition.



fucking metaphysics ¯_(ツ)_/¯



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank