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Forums - Sports Discussion - Tom Brady is clear, Suspension is lifted

I have to wonder, if insisting on innocence is a sign of guilt, how exactly should an innocent man act? Plead guilty?



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mornelithe said:
Robert_Downey_Jr. said:

Yeah they're pretty bad so thanks for bringing that up but Brady is clearly worse.  Well I suppose Belicheck is mostly the spygate guy though all his players were complicit so take your pick.  Definitely Brady with the balls though.  Man it's hard to keep straight all these controvercies and caught red handed moments.  You wann start defening the Saints too or are you backpeddling?

Also, Ray Rice's suspension was overturned, as was Adrian Peterson's.  So yeah, your knowledge of the NFL is really quite fragile.  And no, this isn't a defense, it's more about Goodell and their Lawyers inability to adhere to the CBA and Labor Law (which is why they retooled the domestic abuse and PED's penalties shortly after getting destroyed in court).  It's not about defending bountygate either, it's acknowledging the fact that the NFL abused it's authority.  This case was only a shining example of how stupid Goodell and his cronies are.  They had every opportunity to accept a 1 game settlement out of Brady, and they lost, because they're idiots and couldn't read the tea leaves.

As far as guilt? lol, most legal analysts who've viewed the Wells Report, the Wells Report in Context and the AEI Analysis see the NFL using adverse inferences wherever possible to come to a conclusion of 'more probable than not'.  To say nothing of how badly the appeals transcripts damaged Goodell's credibility, but I'm sure you haven't read that either.  It'd be tossed out of court without even a trial.   That really should tell you something, but it does require a measure of impartiality, which is clear you are not viewing this case through.

Yeah, I'm a Pats fan, but, I'm certainly not above admitting someone broke the rules...if in fact the evidence is there to support it.  The NFL's shit show, was evidence of nothing but their own incompetence.

So, any more claims I can demolish in a 3 second search on google? 

so you're lumping him in with Ray Rice, the saints, and AP?  Works for me!

So if you wanna live in your little bubble where you still believe these titles are legit then fine just don't act like one judge's decision overwrites the destruction of evidence Brady participated in



I am Iron Man

Robert_Downey_Jr. said:
mornelithe said:

Also, Ray Rice's suspension was overturned, as was Adrian Peterson's.  So yeah, your knowledge of the NFL is really quite fragile.  And no, this isn't a defense, it's more about Goodell and their Lawyers inability to adhere to the CBA and Labor Law (which is why they retooled the domestic abuse and PED's penalties shortly after getting destroyed in court).  It's not about defending bountygate either, it's acknowledging the fact that the NFL abused it's authority.  This case was only a shining example of how stupid Goodell and his cronies are.  They had every opportunity to accept a 1 game settlement out of Brady, and they lost, because they're idiots and couldn't read the tea leaves.

As far as guilt? lol, most legal analysts who've viewed the Wells Report, the Wells Report in Context and the AEI Analysis see the NFL using adverse inferences wherever possible to come to a conclusion of 'more probable than not'.  To say nothing of how badly the appeals transcripts damaged Goodell's credibility, but I'm sure you haven't read that either.  It'd be tossed out of court without even a trial.   That really should tell you something, but it does require a measure of impartiality, which is clear you are not viewing this case through.

Yeah, I'm a Pats fan, but, I'm certainly not above admitting someone broke the rules...if in fact the evidence is there to support it.  The NFL's shit show, was evidence of nothing but their own incompetence.

So, any more claims I can demolish in a 3 second search on google? 

so you're lumping him in with Ray Rice, the saints, and AP?  Works for me!

So if you wanna live in your little bubble where you still believe these titles are legit then fine just don't act like one judge's decision overwrites the destruction of evidence Brady participated in

As I said before, this isn't about comparisons.  You claimed a lack of knowledge about any other player who'd taken a suspension this far.  I was immediately able to point out 4, w/in the past 2 years, which really doesn't make you a very good source for...any kind of information on, well, anything (Though, it does go to show how you operate in an actual debate, attempting to wordsmith your way around your own lack of knowledge).  This, of course, is only magnified by the fact you're still regurgitating the leagues talking points, that were trashed by the Wells Report (By Wells' own testimony, no less), and the Appeals transcript itself.  But, as I said before, it's clear you haven't read either of the aforementioned documents, and as such, your level of understanding about this situation is about what you'd expect.



mornelithe said:
Robert_Downey_Jr. said:

so you're lumping him in with Ray Rice, the saints, and AP?  Works for me!

So if you wanna live in your little bubble where you still believe these titles are legit then fine just don't act like one judge's decision overwrites the destruction of evidence Brady participated in

As I said before, this isn't about comparisons.  You claimed a lack of knowledge about any other player who'd taken a suspension this far.  I was immediately able to point out 4, w/in the past 2 years, which really doesn't make you a very good source for...any kind of information on, well, anything (Though, it does go to show how you operate in an actual debate, attempting to wordsmith your way around your own lack of knowledge).  This, of course, is only magnified by the fact you're still regurgitating the leagues talking points, that were trashed by the Wells Report (By Wells' own testimony, no less), and the Appeals transcript itself.  But, as I said before, it's clear you haven't read either of the aforementioned documents, and as such, your level of understanding about this situation is about what you'd expect.

You can read all you want and hide behind legal rulings.  I operate on likelihood.  Call me crazy but I don't hold the same legal process for murderers as I do for cheating in football.  If it looks like a cheater, acts like a cheater, and has multiple instances where it's pretty clear it cheated, not being proven beyond a shred of a doubt factors little into my thoughts.  I'm not trying to get Tom Brady sent to jail.  I'm simply pointing out the ruinous effect these controversies have had on his and his team's reputation.  These things don't come out of nowhere and this isn't a "they're just good so people hate" scenario.  If that were the case I would hate the Spurs or the Giants (baseball) or the Blackhawks.  I don't.  I also don't hate the 80s 9rs, 70s Steelers, or 60s Packers all of whom won as many or more championships.  There's a reason the Patriots are singled out and it ain't all made up.  There's also a reason a New England fan's usual reaction (not yours but many) is either "salty" or "let's move on" or "jealous."  It's because deep down they know they're guilty and that these things don't mean a whole lot when every time you win it's surrounded by controvercy.  Sorry to you Boston fans that the team's reputation is ruined and their rings tarnished.  I do like the Red Sox though so further proof I'm not biased against Boston or winning teams.



I am Iron Man

Robert_Downey_Jr. said:
mornelithe said:

Some stuff

You can read all you want and hide behind legal rulings.  I operate on likelihood.  Call me crazy but I don't hold the same legal process for murderers as I do for cheating in football.  If it looks like a cheater, acts like a cheater, and has multiple instances where it's pretty clear it cheated, not being proven beyond a shred of a doubt factors little into my thoughts.  I'm not trying to get Tom Brady sent to jail. I'm simply pointing out the ruinous effect these controversies have had on his and his team's reputation.  These things don't come out of nowhere and this isn't a "they're just good so people hate" scenario.  If that were the case I would hate the Spurs or the Giants (baseball) or the Blackhawks.  I don't.  I also don't hate the 80s 9rs, 70s Steelers, or 60s Packers all of whom won as many or more championships.  There's a reason the Patriots are singled out and it ain't all made up.  There's also a reason a New England fan's usual reaction (not yours but many) is either "salty" or "let's move on" or "jealous."  It's because deep down they know they're guilty and that these things don't mean a whole lot when every time you win it's surrounded by controvercy.  Sorry to you Boston fans that the team's reputation is ruined and their rings tarnished.  I do like the Red Sox though so further proof I'm not biased against Boston or winning teams.

Without wishing to delve too far into this, part of where I think much of the annoyance on the side of Patriots fans comes from is the fact that some people, as soon as the Patriots get accused of anything suspicious, immediately believe in it whole heartedly, and then continue to support these claims despite them being refuted long ago. A couple examples of this would be the taping walkthroughs report that was redacted by the Boston Herald in 2007, and the 11 out of 12 balls being 2 PSI under the limit by ESPN this year that was later proven false. I've heard these claims repeatedly brought back out, and people tend to get frustrated when the same false assertions continue to pervade every discussion about New England. Since this is the internet, people tend to handle things in the worst way possible, which means the general response to a bland, simplistic "you guys cheated" winds up being "you're just salty."

I will say, though, the Patriots were hated long before Spygate. I remember walking into a new school on my first day in 2005 with a Patriots' hat on, and the first thing just about everyone said to me was "I hate your team" or some variation thereof. Hating teams usually does have quite a bit to do with winning, and I'd argue that's at least partially the case as to why everyone's so quick to believe anything bad that's reported on them. Teams like the Spurs tend to get hated less because, while they've been dominant, there's been an equally dominant team that's far more hate-able through most of their dynasty, whether that be the Lakers of the early 2000s or the Heat between 2010 and 2014.

TL;DR: Much of the reason why people respond with salty is they're tired of hearing same old disproven arguments which sadly tend to exist in society, and respond in the least mature way possible due to the wonderfulness of the internet. 



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MTZehvor said:
Robert_Downey_Jr. said:

You can read all you want and hide behind legal rulings.  I operate on likelihood.  Call me crazy but I don't hold the same legal process for murderers as I do for cheating in football.  If it looks like a cheater, acts like a cheater, and has multiple instances where it's pretty clear it cheated, not being proven beyond a shred of a doubt factors little into my thoughts.  I'm not trying to get Tom Brady sent to jail. I'm simply pointing out the ruinous effect these controversies have had on his and his team's reputation.  These things don't come out of nowhere and this isn't a "they're just good so people hate" scenario.  If that were the case I would hate the Spurs or the Giants (baseball) or the Blackhawks.  I don't.  I also don't hate the 80s 9rs, 70s Steelers, or 60s Packers all of whom won as many or more championships.  There's a reason the Patriots are singled out and it ain't all made up.  There's also a reason a New England fan's usual reaction (not yours but many) is either "salty" or "let's move on" or "jealous."  It's because deep down they know they're guilty and that these things don't mean a whole lot when every time you win it's surrounded by controvercy.  Sorry to you Boston fans that the team's reputation is ruined and their rings tarnished.  I do like the Red Sox though so further proof I'm not biased against Boston or winning teams.

Without wishing to delve too far into this, part of where I think much of the annoyance on the side of Patriots fans comes from is the fact that some people, as soon as the Patriots get accused of anything suspicious, immediately believe in it whole heartedly, and then continue to support these claims despite them being refuted long ago. A couple examples of this would be the taping walkthroughs report that was redacted by the Boston Herald in 2007, and the 11 out of 12 balls being 2 PSI under the limit by ESPN this year that was later proven false. I've heard these claims repeatedly brought back out, and people tend to get frustrated when the same false assertions continue to pervade every discussion about New England. Since this is the internet, people tend to handle things in the worst way possible, which means the general response to a bland, simplistic "you guys cheated" winds up being "you're just salty."

I will say, though, the Patriots were hated long before Spygate. I remember walking into a new school on my first day in 2005 with a Patriots' hat on, and the first thing just about everyone said to me was "I hate your team" or some variation thereof. Hating teams usually does have quite a bit to do with winning, and I'd argue that's at least partially the case as to why everyone's so quick to believe anything bad that's reported on them. Teams like the Spurs tend to get hated less because, while they've been dominant, there's been an equally dominant team that's far more hate-able through most of their dynasty, whether that be the Lakers of the early 2000s or the Heat between 2010 and 2014.

TL;DR: Much of the reason why people respond with salty is they're tired of hearing same old disproven arguments which sadly tend to exist in society, and respond in the least mature way possible due to the wonderfulness of the internet. 

I didn't really hate the Lakers either.  Though the Heat were very hateable for one simple fact, Lebron James.  I have hated that guy ever since he hit a big shot in game 2 of the Eastern Conference finals and talked about only himself in the press conference.  No mention of teammates or guys that kept him in it just about how it was the biggest shot of his career and how much he stepped up under pressure.  Then having a 1 hour TV special for yourself?  Man what a douche.  And yeah every team has people that don't like them, some are just more justified than others.



I am Iron Man

Robert_Downey_Jr. said:

I didn't really hate the Lakers either.  Though the Heat were very hateable for one simple fact, Lebron James.  I have hated that guy ever since he hit a big shot in game 2 of the Eastern Conference finals and talked about only himself in the press conference.  No mention of teammates or guys that kept him in it just about how it was the biggest shot of his career and how much he stepped up under pressure.  Then having a 1 hour TV special for yourself?  Man what a douche.  And yeah every team has people that don't like them, some are just more justified than others.

My point isn't why the Heat were hated, it's more of "the Spurs weren't hated because there was someone else more hateable." I'd argue much of the reason why the Spurs are so well liked by most NBA fans is because they went up against the Heat twice in a row. It's sort of the same phenomenon that happens when someone absolutely despises a candidate in a primary election and then moves to fully supporting them if they win and get to the general election. Things become far more likeable when they're put up against something else that you hate even more.

As far as the NFL goes, however, there really isn't anyone who's been more hateable than the Patriots, and that isn't just on the side of "they win a lot," though I think that certainly has a lot to do with it. Even though the Patriots didn't win a Super Bowl for ten years, no one else was as consistently successful as them (going by how frequently they made it into the playoffs and how often they won) over that time period. Certainly didn't help that the Patriots continually ran up the score on teams in 2007, or that...well...Bill Belichick isn't exactly the most likeable person.

All of this contributes to a situation where quite a few people are willing to believe the worst about New England without bothering to investigate afterwards. Oh, the Boston Herald published an article stating that the Patriots taped the Rams' walkthroughs? Doesn't matter that the article was retracted quickly, many people who bring up Spygate say that it involved taping walkthroughs. Oh, the Patriots were caught breaking a rule about taping from a specific location? Everyone instantly assumes that the 3 Super Bowls beforehand must be the product of cheating as well, without even bothering to check when the rule came into play (2006, btw). I've even seen people (as in multiple) make the argument that the tuck rule was somehow cheating by New England.

None of this is to exonerate the Patriots, it's just to show that people consistently assume the worst about New England in a way that I don't think they do any other American sports entity, with the possible exception of whatever team LeBron James is on. The Pats have basically been branded by much of the NFL fanbase as felons for two infractions, one of which is questionable, that basically equate to speeding tickets in terms of seriousness.



Robert_Downey_Jr. said:

You certainly have an interesting imagination.  It all factors into his tainted legacy.  You may commence with calling it salt again since I'm pretty sure you're not continuously doing that every second of the day.  Hope that clears that up for you.  I have nothing to rage about since the damage has been done.  Brady can whine and rage and fight to win a legitimate ring all he wants but nobody really cares about what you do when you're basically the 1919 Reds of today.

I think at this point it's safe to say that's not any sort of imagination, the salt really does flow that deeply for you. Also, strange that you're this emotional about a suspension being lifted yet you claim nobody really cares about Brady or what he does.

Also, you seem to be massively uninformed about not only this suspension but many others in the NFL's history. Or baseball, for that matter. If you're going to call them the 1919 Reds of today. I mean, what team threw their Super Bowl against the Patriots? I think most people still consider those Super Bowls won by the Patriots, regardless of your salt. Let me check the NFL website:

Yep, 4 Super Bowls for Brady and the Pats. Sorry, buddy :(



mornelithe said:
Robert_Downey_Jr. said:

Yeah they're pretty bad so thanks for bringing that up but Brady is clearly worse.  Well I suppose Belicheck is mostly the spygate guy though all his players were complicit so take your pick.  Definitely Brady with the balls though.  Man it's hard to keep straight all these controvercies and caught red handed moments.  You wann start defening the Saints too or are you backpeddling?

Also, Ray Rice's suspension was overturned, as was Adrian Peterson's.  So yeah, your knowledge of the NFL is really quite fragile.  And no, this isn't a defense, it's more about Goodell and their Lawyers inability to adhere to the CBA and Labor Law (which is why they retooled the domestic abuse and PED's penalties shortly after getting destroyed in court).  It's not about defending bountygate either, it's acknowledging the fact that the NFL abused it's authority.  This case was only a shining example of how stupid Goodell and his cronies are.  They had every opportunity to accept a 1 game settlement out of Brady, and they lost, because they're idiots and couldn't read the tea leaves.

As far as guilt? lol, most legal analysts who've viewed the Wells Report, the Wells Report in Context and the AEI Analysis see the NFL using adverse inferences wherever possible to come to a conclusion of 'more probable than not'.  To say nothing of how badly the appeals transcripts damaged Goodell's credibility, but I'm sure you haven't read that either.  It'd be tossed out of court without even a trial.   That really should tell you something, but it does require a measure of impartiality, which is clear you are not viewing this case through.

Yeah, I'm a Pats fan, but, I'm certainly not above admitting someone broke the rules...if in fact the evidence is there to support it.  The NFL's shit show, was evidence of nothing but their own incompetence.

So, any more claims I can demolish in a 3 second search on google? 


In his defense he did claim to not really watch it any more. Maybe he missed Bountygate and all these other suspensions.



LudicrousSpeed said:
mornelithe said:

Also, Ray Rice's suspension was overturned, as was Adrian Peterson's.  So yeah, your knowledge of the NFL is really quite fragile.  And no, this isn't a defense, it's more about Goodell and their Lawyers inability to adhere to the CBA and Labor Law (which is why they retooled the domestic abuse and PED's penalties shortly after getting destroyed in court).  It's not about defending bountygate either, it's acknowledging the fact that the NFL abused it's authority.  This case was only a shining example of how stupid Goodell and his cronies are.  They had every opportunity to accept a 1 game settlement out of Brady, and they lost, because they're idiots and couldn't read the tea leaves.

As far as guilt? lol, most legal analysts who've viewed the Wells Report, the Wells Report in Context and the AEI Analysis see the NFL using adverse inferences wherever possible to come to a conclusion of 'more probable than not'.  To say nothing of how badly the appeals transcripts damaged Goodell's credibility, but I'm sure you haven't read that either.  It'd be tossed out of court without even a trial.   That really should tell you something, but it does require a measure of impartiality, which is clear you are not viewing this case through.

Yeah, I'm a Pats fan, but, I'm certainly not above admitting someone broke the rules...if in fact the evidence is there to support it.  The NFL's shit show, was evidence of nothing but their own incompetence.

So, any more claims I can demolish in a 3 second search on google? 


In his defense he did claim to not really watch it any more. Maybe he missed Bountygate and all these other suspensions.

Yeah, Bountygate was the first example I came up with, the AP/RR cases were just more examples.  His response was hilarious though:

"so you're lumping him in with Ray Rice, the saints, and AP?  Works for me!"

As if that's the point that was being made, and not that he wasn't aware of any other player who took a suspension this far lol.