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Forums - Politics Discussion - Death sentence. Yes or no?

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sundin13 on 25 June 2015
McDonaldsGuy said:
sundin13 said:
McDonaldsGuy said:

Lol only 75. There are 3,002 death row inmates today (so this isn't even counting all of them from 1976). 75 is 2.5% of 3,002.

Lol I just lol'd.


If you look at the amount of executions that actually took place between 1993-2002, you would find that the number of voluntary executions is around 11% (13% if you broaden the scope outside those years). We can go even further to look into the suicide of those in detention centers and see that the rate of suicide is about 300 per year, but no, I'm sure you are right. Prison is a wonderful place. Its basically Chuck-E-Cheese... No one would pick death over spending time in prison.

Still, you asked for 5, I gave you about 100, and then you brush of my 100. How far can you move the goalposts? Tune in next post to find out...

EDIT: Thanks for the sources Normchacho!

Ted Bundy with his wife, after sex (I prefer sex to Chuck-E-Cheese): https://theodorerobertcowellnelsonbundy.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/ted-bundy-with-daughter-and-ugly-disgusting-woman-who-bore-her-the-cunt-who-abandoned-him-at-his-time-of-need-i-hope-she-contracted-an-std-and-led-a-miserable-life-after-ted-died-4.jpg

Charles Manson, 80 years old banging a 26 year old: http://assets.rollingstone.com/assets/2013/article/is-charles-manson-getting-married-20131120/19948/_original/1035x713-20131119-manson-x1800-1384973102.jpg

It's not Chuck-E-Cheese obviously, but it's a lot better than death. Thus, the vast majority (and 89% is still a vast majority) prefer life over death.

 

Examples of a few people who are basically celebrities don't really speak for the majority. Also, you are ignoring the fairly large chunk of people who commit suicide in prison..

But I've already stated my conclusions and these discussions aren't really refuting any of my points...



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McDonaldsGuy on 25 June 2015
Aeolus451 said:

 First of all, keeping someone in prison for life is extremely costly and there's a chance that the person can be released back into civilization through politics, deals with police or policy changes. I rather use that money to rehabilitate/educate non-violent criminals and the less serious offenders. 

I'm all for an expedited death sentence for raptists, molesters, mass murderers, serial killers and politicians found guilty of corruption.


Yes! Although I don't think rapists should get the death penalty (mainly because it's too much "he said she said").

Children are starving, and anyone who gives money to a serial killer over a starving child is evil imo.



McDonaldsGuy on 25 June 2015
sundin13 said:
McDonaldsGuy said:
sundin13 said:
McDonaldsGuy said:

Lol only 75. There are 3,002 death row inmates today (so this isn't even counting all of them from 1976). 75 is 2.5% of 3,002.

Lol I just lol'd.


If you look at the amount of executions that actually took place between 1993-2002, you would find that the number of voluntary executions is around 11% (13% if you broaden the scope outside those years). We can go even further to look into the suicide of those in detention centers and see that the rate of suicide is about 300 per year, but no, I'm sure you are right. Prison is a wonderful place. Its basically Chuck-E-Cheese... No one would pick death over spending time in prison.

Still, you asked for 5, I gave you about 100, and then you brush of my 100. How far can you move the goalposts? Tune in next post to find out...

EDIT: Thanks for the sources Normchacho!

Ted Bundy with his wife, after sex (I prefer sex to Chuck-E-Cheese): https://theodorerobertcowellnelsonbundy.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/ted-bundy-with-daughter-and-ugly-disgusting-woman-who-bore-her-the-cunt-who-abandoned-him-at-his-time-of-need-i-hope-she-contracted-an-std-and-led-a-miserable-life-after-ted-died-4.jpg

Charles Manson, 80 years old banging a 26 year old: http://assets.rollingstone.com/assets/2013/article/is-charles-manson-getting-married-20131120/19948/_original/1035x713-20131119-manson-x1800-1384973102.jpg

It's not Chuck-E-Cheese obviously, but it's a lot better than death. Thus, the vast majority (and 89% is still a vast majority) prefer life over death.

 

Examples of a few people who are basically celebrities don't really speak for the majority. Also, you are ignoring the fairly large chunk of people who commit suicide in prison..

But I've already stated my conclusions and these discussions aren't really refuting any of my points...

You really want me to start showing you articles on prison life in America? How they have access to drugs, internet, television, etc. etc.? Yes, everyone obviously prefers freedom - but everyone also prefers life in prison over death.

So it goes:

freedom > prison > death penalty.

And suicide STATISTICS***  in prison is meaningless. The suicide of prisoners (in America) is LESS than the nationwide average. http://www.bop.gov/inmates/custody_and_care/mental_health.jsp

"he BOP's suicide rate is lower than that of the United States population as a whole, however, one life lost is one too many. "

The problem is your thinking is based on how you THINK prisons are (dirty, rape is rampant, chain gangs,, no freedom, etc. etc.) not how they actually ARE.

What we should be talking about is death penalty reform: standards of evidence needs to be higher, corruption needs to be punished SEVERLY, there needs to be NO doubt, just not no reasonable doubt, DNA done by third non-biased parties, etc. etc.

 

***Editedi n



ReimTime on 25 June 2015

Well I can be glad about one thing. At least they spend money getting automatic appeals instead of just outright killing people like they did a couple of hundred years ago? Remember that? Remember all those witch hunts where they hung and drowned all those witches? Man they sure showed them who was in charge! I don't see any witches nowadays, that's for certain!

Isn't it funny how the USA spends so much money on the Capital Punishment:

......and yet its teens are 36th worldwide in math, science and reading?  And the US is ranked 16th worldwide in social progress? Well at least we know they are spending their money in the right place.

"How do we stop the gun problem? Oh I know! Give everyone a gun and we'll all be safe!"

"Oh no, they're murdering people with guns! What will we do? Oh I know, we'll kill them! Yea!"

USA!!! USA!!!

 

 

You know, fighting fire with fire is not always the best solution. Most of the time preventing the fire in the first place works best.



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McDonaldsGuy on 25 June 2015
ReimTime said:

Well I can be glad about one thing. At least they spend money getting automatic appeals instead of just outright killing people like they did a couple of hundred years ago? Remember that? Remember all those witch hunts where they hung and drowned all those witches? Man they sure showed them who was in charge! I don't see any witches nowadays, that's for certain!

Isn't it funny how the USA spends so much money on the Capital Punishment:

......and yet its teens are 36th worldwide in math, science and reading?  And the US is ranked 16th worldwide in social progress? Well at least we know they are spending their money in the right place.

"How do we stop the gun problem? Oh I know! Give everyone a gun and we'll all be safe!"

"Oh no, they're murdering people with guns! What will we do? Oh I know, we'll kill them! Yea!"

USA!!! USA!!!

 

 

You know, fighting fire with fire is not always the best solution. Most of the time preventing the fire in the first place works best.


I agree we should do more to prevent this but the death penalty has nothing to do with progress lol. I am glad to live in America with gun rights and all.



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Normchacho on 25 June 2015
McDonaldsGuy said:
Normchacho said:
McDonaldsGuy said:
Normchacho said:

 

Oh yeah? There are currently 32 death penalty cases being reviewed due to flawed testimony surrounding forensic evidence between 1980 and 2000. 14 of those convicted have already been executed or died in prison.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/4d1ac1226ca240319c3ac656ae1b246f/report-doj-fbi-acknowledge-flawed-testimony-unit

I also present you with the case of Cameron Todd Williams. Executed in 2004 for the murders of his three daughters after intentionally setting their house on fire. Except of course he didn't actually do that.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/03/cameron_todd_willingham_prosecutor_john_jackson_charges_corrupt_prosecution.html

"accurate enough"...Those two words represent what I feel is an insurmountable difference in this disscussion. My opinion, if that there is no such thing as "accurate enough" when it comes to the state putting people to death. especially when there is no real societal benefit to putting people to death in the first place.

As I said, I would have been totally against the death penalty (except for cases like serial/spree killers) about 15 years ago. You keep proving my point - DNA is helping free these people.

And I have read about Cameron Todd Williams and I feel it should go to court again to get the truth about, but as it stands no inncoent person has yet to be executed, or at least, with DNA now available.

I also feel that prosecutors should be held accountable for purposely falsifying evidence - they are not. There is a problem with the prosecution, not the death penalty itself. Your example isn't really any good anyhow (the FBI one, not the Cameron).

DNA isn't helping free these people. More than a third of them are already dead due to prosecutors overstating the importance of forensic evidence. DNA put them where they are now.

There is a huge diffeence between a recognized execution of an innocent person and the actual execution of an innocent person.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent

“If you look at the numbers in our study, at how many errors are made, then you cannot believe that we haven’t executed any innocent person – that would be wishful thinking.”

 

As I said before though, there is no acceptable margin of error for executions. Especially when there isn't a societal benefit to the executions in the first place.



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McDonaldsGuy on 25 June 2015
Normchacho said:

DNA isn't helping free these people. More than a third of them are already dead due to prosecutors overstating the importance of forensic evidence. DNA put them where they are now.

There is a huge diffeence between a recognized execution of an innocent person and the actual execution of an innocent person.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent

“If you look at the numbers in our study, at how many errors are made, then you cannot believe that we haven’t executed any innocent person – that would be wishful thinking.”

 

As I said before though, there is no acceptable margin of error for executions. Especially when there isn't a societal benefit to the executions in the first place.

FBI corruption put them in there - not the death penalty, and corruption needs to be punished (it isn't currently). There are a ton of false rape accusations should we quit taking rape accusations seriously? No. It's t he liars that are the problem.

And hair samples aren't DNA evidence - they are extremely flawed evidence and I do think it's stupid how people can get convicted based on that. Which is why I think we need death penalty reform.

And there are many societal benefits for executions. Why do you care so much what happens to some murderer anyway? I think we should not only be for the death penalty; we should be OBLIGATED to be for it. We should be happy when someone who made the world shittier finally goes. My sympathy is reserved 100% for the victims. What if your mother was a victim? Your best friend? It disgusts me how much people are for these murderer's lives.



Normchacho on 25 June 2015
McDonaldsGuy said:
Aeolus451 said:

 First of all, keeping someone in prison for life is extremely costly and there's a chance that the person can be released back into civilization through politics, deals with police or policy changes. I rather use that money to rehabilitate/educate non-violent criminals and the less serious offenders. 

I'm all for an expedited death sentence for raptists, molesters, mass murderers, serial killers and politicians found guilty of corruption.


Yes! Although I don't think rapists should get the death penalty (mainly because it's too much "he said she said").

Children are starving, and anyone who gives money to a serial killer over a starving child is evil imo.

Sweet Jesus what a straw man!

You also conveniently seemed to have forgotten the fact that the death penalty is way way way more expensive than life in prison. You want money to help those kids? Stop putting people to death.



Bet with Adamblaziken:

I bet that on launch the Nintendo Switch will have no built in in-game voice chat. He bets that it will. The winner gets six months of avatar control over the other user.

sundin13 on 25 June 2015
McDonaldsGuy said:

 but everyone also prefers life in prison over death.

Just stop using absolutes. Please...

Anyways, about the prison suicide statistics. The comparisons with the general population are difficult to make because there are things like suicide watch and restriction to access of things that could be used to commit suicide with. Still, its laughable in light of your above statement.

But, this is all just talking in circles around one point of many which led me to my anti-death penalty point of view, and if one of my many points is considered "arguable", I'm perfectly fine with making that concession and still having plenty of other legs to stand on.



McDonaldsGuy on 25 June 2015
sundin13 said:
McDonaldsGuy said:

 but everyone also prefers life in prison over death.

Just stop using absolutes. Please...

Anyways, about the prison suicide statistics. The comparisons with the general population are difficult to make because there are things like suicide watch and restriction to access of things that could be used to commit suicide with. Still, its laughable in light of your above statement.

But, this is all just talking in circles around one point of many which led me to my anti-death penalty point of view, and if one of my many points is considered "arguable", I'm perfectly fine with making that concession and still having plenty of other legs to stand on.

You're the one that said 89% prefer life over death; not me.

My dad was in prison for nearly a decade and let me tell you this: drugs are easier found in prison than outside. If you really want me to show you how prison life in America is I will, but your entire life will turn upside down. Are you prepared?