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Forums - PC Discussion - Are the "PC Master Race" days over?

Cerebralbore101 said:
CladInShadows said:

Other than an increase of whiny gamers, how has this hurt PC gaming?

1. EGS has always online DRM, meaning that once the servers for a game go down your game is unplayable. So you are forced to choose between an always online DRM version of a game, or waiting a year for it to finally hit Steam. 

2  Also, it's really inconvenient to have multiple launchers. GoG, or Steam, or I'm not buying your game.

1. Incorrect. EGS does not have an always online DRM.  There's an offline mode, just like steam.  Any DRM is set by the publisher on a per game basis, just like steam.

2. Multiple launchers comes down to personal preference.  GOG 2.0 helps alleviate that.  I find it a small price to pay for the roughly 70 free games they've given me.



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John2290 said:
Random_Matt said:
Damn, necro thread.
My rig destroys next gen already.

Pity there aren't a swath of games to take full advantage of it. 

What do you mean? 99% of games that aren't shitty console ports already run far above 60fps for many years now. Funnily enough something that not even next year's "next gen" consoles will be able to achieve. So yeah, the vast majority of games are already taking full advantage of not being on a console.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

CladInShadows said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

1. EGS has always online DRM, meaning that once the servers for a game go down your game is unplayable. So you are forced to choose between an always online DRM version of a game, or waiting a year for it to finally hit Steam. 

2  Also, it's really inconvenient to have multiple launchers. GoG, or Steam, or I'm not buying your game.

1. Incorrect. EGS does not have an always online DRM.  There's an offline mode, just like steam.  Any DRM is set by the publisher on a per game basis, just like steam.

2. Multiple launchers comes down to personal preference.  GOG 2.0 helps alleviate that.  I find it a small price to pay for the roughly 70 free games they've given me.

1. I got Subnautica for free on EGS. Couldn't play it in offline mode, after being disconnected from the internet for 24-48 hours. My roommate who had the game on Steam could play it in offline mode just fine, after being offline for 48 hours. If it's on a per game basis, then why could my roommate play it on Steam, after a 24-48 hour period of being disconnected, while I couldn't? The same thing goes for Borderlands 3 on consoles. Why isn't there always online DRM for Borderlands 3 on consoles, but you can't play the game in offline mode in the EGS? 

2. Most people prefer having their games on Steam, due to achievements, friends lists, etc. People should be free to buy the game from whatever store they want. If Epic owned their own studios and made first party content exclusively for their store that would be fine. But forcing people to use your store if they want to play a 3rd party multiplat on PC is just stupid. 

Edit: Anyway having multiple stores, and having to navigate DRM policies or EULAs hurts PC gaming overall. Things were much better when everything was on Steam and those other stores were purely optional.

Last edited by Cerebralbore101 - on 06 January 2020

Cerebralbore101 said:
CladInShadows said:

1. Incorrect. EGS does not have an always online DRM.  There's an offline mode, just like steam.  Any DRM is set by the publisher on a per game basis, just like steam.

2. Multiple launchers comes down to personal preference.  GOG 2.0 helps alleviate that.  I find it a small price to pay for the roughly 70 free games they've given me.

1. I got Subnautica for free on EGS. Couldn't play it in offline mode, after being disconnected from the internet for 24-48 hours. My roommate who had the game on Steam could play it in offline mode just fine, after being offline for 48 hours. If it's on a per game basis, then why could my roommate play it on Steam, after a 24-48 hour period of being disconnected, while I couldn't? The same thing goes for Borderlands 3 on consoles. Why isn't there always online DRM for Borderlands 3 on consoles, but you can't play the game in offline mode in the EGS? 

2. Most people prefer having their games on Steam, due to achievements, friends lists, etc. People should be free to buy the game from whatever store they want. If Epic owned their own studios and made first party content exclusively for their store that would be fine. But forcing people to use your store if they want to play a 3rd party multiplat on PC is just stupid. 

Edit: Anyway having multiple stores, and having to navigate DRM policies or EULAs hurts PC gaming overall. Things were much better when everything was on Steam and those other stores were purely optional.

If you played Subnautica around the time it was given to us, then offline mode wasn't available then.  Not until February.  If it was recently, then you'd have to ask their developer why they made it always online for Epic.  But the fact remains that EGS has an offline mode. I'm not making it up.

Borderlands 3 uses Denuvo DRM.  Nothing to do with Epic.  Again, ask the developer/publisher why they made that decision.  Though apparently people have been finding ways around the always online. And this is also not a fair comparison since you're comparing PC and console.

Anyways, we're not going to agree on the multiple launchers bit. Only that hardly any of the other launchers have been "optional". Steam has exclusives.  GOG has exclusives.  Origin has exclusives. And I'll be buying games where I can get the best deal.  If I have to click 30 pixels to the left in order to open a different launcher, then I'll do it, no matter how harrowing and stressful the experience is.



CladInShadows said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

1. I got Subnautica for free on EGS. Couldn't play it in offline mode, after being disconnected from the internet for 24-48 hours. My roommate who had the game on Steam could play it in offline mode just fine, after being offline for 48 hours. If it's on a per game basis, then why could my roommate play it on Steam, after a 24-48 hour period of being disconnected, while I couldn't? The same thing goes for Borderlands 3 on consoles. Why isn't there always online DRM for Borderlands 3 on consoles, but you can't play the game in offline mode in the EGS? 

2. Most people prefer having their games on Steam, due to achievements, friends lists, etc. People should be free to buy the game from whatever store they want. If Epic owned their own studios and made first party content exclusively for their store that would be fine. But forcing people to use your store if they want to play a 3rd party multiplat on PC is just stupid. 

Edit: Anyway having multiple stores, and having to navigate DRM policies or EULAs hurts PC gaming overall. Things were much better when everything was on Steam and those other stores were purely optional.

If you played Subnautica around the time it was given to us, then offline mode wasn't available then.  Not until February.  If it was recently, then you'd have to ask their developer why they made it always online for Epic.  But the fact remains that EGS has an offline mode. I'm not making it up.

Borderlands 3 uses Denuvo DRM.  Nothing to do with Epic.  Again, ask the developer/publisher why they made that decision.  Though apparently people have been finding ways around the always online. And this is also not a fair comparison since you're comparing PC and console.

Anyways, we're not going to agree on the multiple launchers bit. Only that hardly any of the other launchers have been "optional". Steam has exclusives.  GOG has exclusives.  Origin has exclusives. And I'll be buying games where I can get the best deal.  If I have to click 30 pixels to the left in order to open a different launcher, then I'll do it, no matter how harrowing and stressful the experience is.

Eh, I guess I'll give EGS another try. Maybe RNGesus hates me, and I happened to pick the only two games on EGS that have always online DRM?

It's not simply a matter of clicking 30 pixels to the left. It's convoluted and unnecessary to need to have 5-7 launchers, and 5-7 passwords just to keep track of all your PC games. Can you imagine there being five different eShops on Switch? One for each major publisher? Now imagine there being a crapshoot of wildly varying DRM and EULA policies per store.

If any other platform had the ridiculousness of storefronts that PC has, it would get laughed out of the park. But because it's PC we are all going to give it a pass?



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Cerebralbore101 said:
CladInShadows said:

If you played Subnautica around the time it was given to us, then offline mode wasn't available then.  Not until February.  If it was recently, then you'd have to ask their developer why they made it always online for Epic.  But the fact remains that EGS has an offline mode. I'm not making it up.

Borderlands 3 uses Denuvo DRM.  Nothing to do with Epic.  Again, ask the developer/publisher why they made that decision.  Though apparently people have been finding ways around the always online. And this is also not a fair comparison since you're comparing PC and console.

Anyways, we're not going to agree on the multiple launchers bit. Only that hardly any of the other launchers have been "optional". Steam has exclusives.  GOG has exclusives.  Origin has exclusives. And I'll be buying games where I can get the best deal.  If I have to click 30 pixels to the left in order to open a different launcher, then I'll do it, no matter how harrowing and stressful the experience is.

Eh, I guess I'll give EGS another try. Maybe RNGesus hates me, and I happened to pick the only two games on EGS that have always online DRM?

It's not simply a matter of clicking 30 pixels to the left. It's convoluted and unnecessary to need to have 5-7 launchers, and 5-7 passwords just to keep track of all your PC games. Can you imagine there being five different eShops on Switch? One for each major publisher? Now imagine there being a crapshoot of wildly varying DRM and EULA policies per store.

If any other platform had the ridiculousness of storefronts that PC has, it would get laughed out of the park. But because it's PC we are all going to give it a pass?

We don't question RNGesus. We just try to move forward.

I understand.  That's the price of an open platform, my friend! I just don't personally see the big deal.  I don't really consider it a true exclusive if all I need to do to gain access is to install a new launcher.  It's not like I have a Playstation and a game I really want to play is only on XBOX.  It's not enough of a hurdle that I'd refuse to play a game because it was on a different launcher.

Seriously though....GOG Galaxy 2.0 is already making this mostly a non-issue.  I can only imagine how things will be as they continue to add more features.



Cerebralbore101 said:

Can you imagine there being five different eShops on Switch? One for each major publisher? Now imagine there being a crapshoot of wildly varying DRM and EULA policies per store.

If any other platform had the ridiculousness of storefronts that PC has, it would get laughed out of the park. But because it's PC we are all going to give it a pass?

Can you imagine there being five different digital stores on Switch or PlayStation? Some with games Nintendo or Sony doesn't offer in certain regions or doesn't offer at all? Or uncensored versions of games which are censored in the eShop or PS-Store?

Some digital competition leading to lower prices / more sales? Getting more freebies in different digital stores on that platform?

Some digital stores with better search filters or faster download speeds than eShop and PS-Store?

Some digital stores where you can get a refund for a bad game or if you chose the wrong version of a game?

Some digital stores where you can talk in forums about games, give tips or look up some user guides?

Some digital stores where you can read some user reviews instead for your buying decision instead of just "counting stars" (PS-Store) or have no user ratings at all (eShop)?

Some digital stores with additional payment methods or a gifting option?

Last edited by Conina - on 07 January 2020

Conina said:
patronmacabre said:

You missed the crux of my argument. I wasn't talking about backwards compatibility, I was complaining about the annoyance of software rot. Computers age after five years (three to four years for laptops) and don't run as fast as they once did. Anyone who has never experienced this has never used the same computer for that long a span of time. The only way to really fix it is to straight up reformat your hard drive and reinstall Windows. 

The reason for computer rot is that there is planned obsolescence in the software and hardware of PCs that is non-existant in consoles because of the nature of generational changes. A console doesn't need to degrade, because games will eventually just stop coming out for that system. 

It is also seemingly apparent that hardware manufacturers, Nvidia in particular, are speeding up the rates of hardware obsolescence with their graphics cards, as there are reports that the Geforce 700 series do not play games as well as they properly should.

I don't mean to get into an argument, but it seems more and more apparent that that so many new PC gamers have no idea what they're getting into. A GTX 980 isn't going to futureproof your computer against the next generation even if it should, because PCs have built-in planned obselence. 

Okay, i waited almost another five years. The software rot didn't happen.

My last clean install of Windows was in October 2013 (so even before launch of the PS4 and XBO), when I bought my still current CPU (i5 4670K for less than €200), mainboard and RAM. I upgraded to Windows 10 in 2015, but that wasn't a clean install, all settings and installations were brought over to the newer OS.

Since then I installed thousands of PC games and it didn't matter either. The system didn't get slower, benchmarks still give the expected results.

The hardware obsolence also didn't happen. The GTX 980 ist still well above the minimum specs of any existing PC game. Slower performance due to newer graphic drivers has also been disproven over and over again from various tech sites comparing results of different drivers.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/6u4cpw/is_nvidia_ruining_your_performance_linus_tech_tips/

Driver optimization efforts are of course focused to the newest GPU generation, but old hardware doesn't get slower with new drivers. It stays the same or even gets a bit better.

I waited another 2.5 years. I gifted my old PC to my brother and he is happy with it. The software rot still didn't happen. The system didn't get slower, benchmarks still give the expected results.

The hardware obsolence also still didn't happen. The 7.5 year old GTX 980 and GTX 970 and the 8.5 year old R9 290X and R9 290 GPUs are still running (almost?) every new game with 30+ fps, often even with 40+ fps:

And that's even without the boost of AMD FSR 1.0 + 2.0 / RSR or Nvidia Image Scaling.

So PCs can also run a "console generation" of 6 - 8 years without problems or big compromises.



Conina said:

So PCs can also run a "console generation" of 6 - 8 years without problems or big compromises.

I have been saying that for decades.

I.E. With the old Core 2 Quad. (Which is still running some games today) and the old Core i7 3930K (Which is still running every game today.)

You can build a PC, keep it for a decade and just upgrade the GPU on the odd occasion if you want the best visuals, otherwise you can just reduce a few settings.

The idea that you need to upgrade/throw it out every 6 months hasn't existed since the 90's...
I did sell off the old RX 580 though once it's limitations started to impact my gaming experience in titles like Halo: Infinite, but I could have easily stopped chasing 144hz and high settings and kept it for years longer.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Bro i used an 4800 series for 8 years untill i decided to maybe removing the dust was a good idea amd broke the fan. Yes i had to compromise at the end but what do you expect if its running on ddr2 aswell



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