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Forums - Gaming Discussion - What does Valve need to do to make SteamOS work?

ArchangelMadzz on 27 May 2015
Bokal said:
JRPGfan said:
The problem they face:

1) they cannot compete on price.
2) PS4 has a pretty good software ecosystem.


issues:

1)You cant build a pc currently thats faster than a PS4, but costs less than a PS4.

2)Since steampc's vary in components, you ll never reach the same level of optimisation as the PS4 (you need a stronger machine to do the same thing the PS4 is doing).

3) with a Consol, you put in the game, and play. You dont have to tinker with game settings to find what works.


The way I see it those are the main issues.... and their kinda big.

They need to appeal to the upper end of the gamer market instead.
Make crazy expensive SteamOS pc's (in terms of hardware) that can do what no other machines can do.

1) Steam games are much cheaper than PS4 games, so overall, I think it's much cheaper to play on SteamOS in the long run.

2) Steam (not SteamOS yet) is a much bigger ecosystem than PS4's. + no problem of backwards compatibility, you can change your hardware and still play your games.

1) You can't build a pc currently that's faster than PS4 for the same price YET. But you will, and you can already build a much more powerful PC than a PS4.

2) Valid point, but you're already able to build a much more powerful PC, so...

3) That's what Steam Machines / SteamOS are about.

When you can build a PC faster than a PS4 for $400... The PS4 will not be $400.



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Zappykins on 27 May 2015
pbroy said:

If Valve makes a Steam portal app for Xbone, it could be a game changer. It could easily be done with Windows 10. The question is, who would gain the most? Will one weaken the other? Or would they both benefit? If all else fails, M$ can just buy Valve and win no matter what.

I find it hard to belive an admin thinks it is aproprate to write like that.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

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Zappykins on 27 May 2015
walsufnir said:
biglittlesps said:

You can sell your PS4 games disc after playing which will make the game even cheaper than steam beacause you cant sell your steam digital version after using. 


Depends on the game and when you bought the game so generally this is not always true. Not to say that you, if you do this, after several years, you don't have any library to claim yours, only the games you didn't already sell. This is not what people do usually.

You mean that $5 in credit back from my $60 game isn't an amazing deal?  /s



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!
AnthonyW86 on 27 May 2015

They need to release a Steam box with fixed hardware so that optimisations are possible and you don't get any driver issues etc. Then release a new hardware combination every year, with the abilty to upgrade the one from last year.

They could also do three hardware combinations for say $400, $600 and $800. Then every year a new $800 is released and the rest goes down in price and the old $400 is replaced. They could also do this every 2 years but then you would probably have to go to $1200 to $1500 for the most expensive model to make ik future proof. Or just replace al three models offcourse, but then you probably get to many hardware configurations to optimize for.



Bokal on 27 May 2015
walsufnir said:
Bokal said:
walsufnir said:
The biggest problem, in my opinion, is a technical one: linux. Valve has to fix the mess that Linux is in terms of gaming. Different renderers, different window systems, different gl-versions, driver status with performance penalty... just to name a few.
If you want "serious" gaming besides 2d-games and basic 3d games like tuxracer, you have to mitigate a lot of existing problems.


Valve has already helped fixing a lot of this mess and drivers improved a lot lately. I play on Steam Linux (no Windows) and everything is going fine for me.

The game library is not half as good as the windows one yet, but it's much better since Valve has invested in SteamOS, and getting better every day.


I don't doubt it gets better but as long as you can't run DirectX programs on Linux, I don't see it going anywhere. And I doubt there will ever be a good wrapper, not to mention it "costs" you a lot to wrap api calls.

Of course you can play games on Linux but not all and not the important ones (while "important" may be totally subjective, of course).

I agree with that. Even though, with wine, you can play games up to DirectX 9 most of the times without much problems and very little performance lost.

Question is, will DirectX always stay relevant? PS4 doesn't have DirectX and is still getting the games. Vulkan is coming and could very well replace it. Most modern engines already run on linux.



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walsufnir on 27 May 2015
Bokal said:
walsufnir said:
 


I don't doubt it gets better but as long as you can't run DirectX programs on Linux, I don't see it going anywhere. And I doubt there will ever be a good wrapper, not to mention it "costs" you a lot to wrap api calls.

Of course you can play games on Linux but not all and not the important ones (while "important" may be totally subjective, of course).

I agree with that. Even though, with wine, you can play games up to DirectX 9 most of the times without much problems and very little performance lost.

Question is, will DirectX always stay relevant? PS4 doesn't have DirectX and is still getting the games. Vulkan is coming and could very well replace it. Most modern engines already run on linux.

 

Yeah but how old is DX9? You won't notice the overhead because PCs easily outperform usual DX9 PCs.

Question is, why would DX not stay relevant? Consoles never used a standard DirectX but it still exists. Yes, Vulkan is coming but it has to prove a lot to devs to make them change their mind about the mess that OpenGL currently is. And which modern engines run on linux and get AAA titles? They are compatible with Linux (whatever that exactly means in their respective contexts) but if the games are missing, who cares if they do? If nobody "tests" this you can promise everything :)

I don't see that DirectX will get lost anytime soon because of Linux/SteamOS on the gaming side. Win10 will be free for a lot of people, it will feature DX12 which is a huge step forward for gaming purposes, especially the D3D part.



Bokal on 27 May 2015
ArchangelMadzz said:
Bokal said:
JRPGfan said:
The problem they face:

1) they cannot compete on price.
2) PS4 has a pretty good software ecosystem.


issues:

1)You cant build a pc currently thats faster than a PS4, but costs less than a PS4.

2)Since steampc's vary in components, you ll never reach the same level of optimisation as the PS4 (you need a stronger machine to do the same thing the PS4 is doing).

3) with a Consol, you put in the game, and play. You dont have to tinker with game settings to find what works.


The way I see it those are the main issues.... and their kinda big.

They need to appeal to the upper end of the gamer market instead.
Make crazy expensive SteamOS pc's (in terms of hardware) that can do what no other machines can do.

1) Steam games are much cheaper than PS4 games, so overall, I think it's much cheaper to play on SteamOS in the long run.

2) Steam (not SteamOS yet) is a much bigger ecosystem than PS4's. + no problem of backwards compatibility, you can change your hardware and still play your games.

1) You can't build a pc currently that's faster than PS4 for the same price YET. But you will, and you can already build a much more powerful PC than a PS4.

2) Valid point, but you're already able to build a much more powerful PC, so...

3) That's what Steam Machines / SteamOS are about.

When you can build a PC faster than a PS4 for $400... The PS4 will not be $400.

Very true. That's a debate that has been going for long, I don't see any new things to add to it.
Consoles are cheaper, PCs are more powerful.

I'm a console guy, that's why I'm enthusiastic about SteamOS/Machines. It's best of both worlds, ease of use and performance. Of course it will come at a price when you will have to buy the SteamMachine, but Steam sales makes it much more acceptable in the long run.



They will know Helgan belongs to Helghasts

Bokal on 27 May 2015
walsufnir said:
Bokal said:
walsufnir said:
 
 


I don't doubt it gets better but as long as you can't run DirectX programs on Linux, I don't see it going anywhere. And I doubt there will ever be a good wrapper, not to mention it "costs" you a lot to wrap api calls.

Of course you can play games on Linux but not all and not the important ones (while "important" may be totally subjective, of course).

I agree with that. Even though, with wine, you can play games up to DirectX 9 most of the times without much problems and very little performance lost.

Question is, will DirectX always stay relevant? PS4 doesn't have DirectX and is still getting the games. Vulkan is coming and could very well replace it. Most modern engines already run on linux.

 

Yeah but how old is DX9? You won't notice the overhead because PCs easily outperform usual DX9 PCs.

Question is, why would DX not stay relevant? Consoles never used a standard DirectX but it still exists. Yes, Vulkan is coming but it has to prove a lot to devs to make them change their mind about the mess that OpenGL currently is. And which modern engines run on linux and get AAA titles? They are compatible with Linux (whatever that exactly means in their respective contexts) but if the games are missing, who cares if they do? If nobody "tests" this you can promise everything :)

I don't see that DirectX will get lost anytime soon because of Linux/SteamOS on the gaming side. Win10 will be free for a lot of people, it will feature DX12 which is a huge step forward for gaming purposes, especially the D3D part.

Once again, I agree with you on the state of things now. I'm just not as sure as you about the future. I don't say either that DX will die. I just say that things are much better nowadays than ever and getting better every day for linux gaming and that the outcome for SteamOS is not as simple as "There is no AAA today so there will never be". All the investment from Valve and others (Intel, Nvidia, AMD, Epic, Crytek,...) is way too recent to expect things will change overnight.

I only talked about DX9 because you said a wrapper costs a lot in terms of performance, and it's been proven not true. But you're right DX9 is awfully old and it's not something to brag about to be compatible with it, yet it's still used in fairly recent games.



They will know Helgan belongs to Helghasts

Bokal on 02 June 2015

A good presentation video about SteamOS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrEEKIinjvE



They will know Helgan belongs to Helghasts

Chazore on 02 June 2015
JRPGfan said:

They need to appeal to the upper end of the gamer market instead.
Make crazy expensive SteamOS pc's (in terms of hardware) that can do what no other machines can do.

Upper end?, pray tell what who is the upper end you are talking about?.

Why does it need to be crazy expensive, the last time I checked PC's or we may as well lump in SM's now were seen as being crazy expensive to begin with which was apparently why PC gaming was "nowhere near popular" as many will claim and still claim, what does being super over the top (yes you're going there with the word Crazy expensive, which btw doesn't have a set limit so don't try for the sake of your argument) expensive going to do for them at all?, people already buy pre builts and build their own PC's crazy expensive won't appeal to those and even then "other machines" which are custom built can do what crazy expensive can do just as good, you're setting it up so they are damned if they do, damned if they don't and just making it out like they have not a chance so they may as well feed to the nice age old myth that PC gaming is super expensive.

There is no need to be over the top "crazy expensive", we're not all loaded and you;re limiting the market to something you won't end up counting in the future anyway.



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