Let's add something. Western games are not only about shooters, but also presentation. We have games like Skyrim that sold pretty well, and it's an RPG, but the presentation was western. Nintendo in Japan can still develop japanese games that caters to western audience as long as the presentation/interface caters to that audience.

I never said they were only about shooters. I didn't even mention shooters. I think that the way Square expanded with it's Eidos department is exaclty what Nintendo's end goal should be. Square now has Tomb Raider, Deus Ex, Theif, and Hitman, but they also still have Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Dragon Quest, and other classic franchises. If Nintendo had one base like Eidos in the US and different one in Europe, that would end up as a knock out combo with what they currently have in Japan.

I don't think that it's an intelligent move to have these developers working on games to fit a culture they clearly don't understand, when they already have developers that do understand it and live in it.

I don't think it's as straight forward as you're putting it tbh, speaking from what I've seen in 26 years of gaming culture is a loose factor in game development and living in an area doesn't mean you'll appeal to them better. It's not culture but the market that keeps shifting that's an issue, fact is Nintendo are already appealing to the west in their games because their games are built on a design philosphy that always ensures an audience regardless of the mainstream, under this why should they try to turn Retro into another Eidos or Naughty Dog whose games are subject to the mainstream and are part of companies who have different visions in mind. The majority of gamers changes every few generations what doesn't appeal now may in fact appeal to the same region in future it's not a culture aspect but a market one.

Retro would be better off being a studio that sticks to the design approach like other first parties, even if it means that at some point they can take charge of other first party IPs to free up EAD or any other large first party for other things that's equally as good as having a studio like ND on board.

But Nintendo's isn't appealing in the west reguardless of the mainstream. It doesn't matter how much the games they currently make are appealing a small audience, because it's not even remotely close to being enough to sustain a console business. That's clear, as their console is not selling and they're losing money because of it. No one can look at Nintendo's situation with a straight face and say that Nintendo isn't doing something seriously wrong that Sony and Microsoft are doing right. And when you think of it that way, and you should, there are things that become immediately clear. One of them is that the mainstream audience is a western one, and most of them don't factor Nintendo into their equasion when deciding which console to buy.

Now obviously there are numerous factors as to why, but the biggest and most undeniable one is the perseption that Nintendo doesn't make "hardcore" games, which is obviously bullshit, but it still translates to the fact that Nintendo doesn't produce games that appeal to the mainstream western demographic. Third parties will never be enough, because Nintendo doesn't have any exclusive reasons to chose them over the competition in the first place when it comes to those titles. Some people find it hard to believe that there's an audience out their scoffing at Zelda and Metroid, but there is, and it's most of the current gaming populace, whether you consider them casual or not.

They make up the majority demographic that Nintendo has 0 appeal to, and that's costing them serious console sales. Retro is the perfect studio to start making games, quality games, that can appeal to that audience. Especially since that's the whole reason why they exist in the first place. It would be, frankly, stupid of Nintendo to not try and appeal to the majority of the market in some serious way right now leading to their next console.

Except the games are appealing to the west as their software still sells well don't mistake platform sales for appeal, that's appealing regardless of the mainstream, Microsoft's position isn't much better either and they're doing everything you claim Nintendo should. Nintendo maybe a Japanese company but even then their games aren't really like other Japanese games they're pretty much Nintendo's own brand and style.

The majority of the mainstream audience has always been western this is the first flaw I see in your stance here, go all the way back to the NES days you'll find that's always been the case and you can check the platform totals section this site has for reference. What happens is that the majority changes after a few gens and something else becomes mainstream, it's not the culture it's the market itself as it keeps shifting, this is one reason Nintendo shouldn't go out there way to appeal to a specific audience who the majority are going to shift, the mainstream audience now may not be the mainstream audience next gen because 7 years is a long time and other aspects in people's lives start to take over this is why the mainstream keeps shifting.

Secondly making quality games is not what appeals to the current mainstream, it's hype and marketing that does that, Destiny for one is a mediocre game but appeals to the majority because a classic sales tactic has been employed to tell them it's what they should buy. We're in an era where quality is not a factor in sales and this doesn't only apply to gaming either, what would sell Nintendo's platform better then anything you suggest is selling at a loss for a much cheaper price point on their platforms and using software sales to offset the loss until the hardware breaks even.

The third flaw I see is that many of the mainstream only buy one platform anyway, Retro trying to make games that appeals to them doesn't equal them coming over in droves, mainstream audiences are more stuck in their way then anyone else.

You've got to be joking. Are you seriously trying to argue that the XBO outselling a two year console in less than a year "isn't much better?" It doesn't matter if their games aren't like other Japanese games. They don't appeal to the mainstream western market and their consoles don't sell because there's nothing that does.

The console market has never been as western dominated as it is today. Not even close. There's no getting around that. Who cares about semantics in phrasing?Call it the western market or call it western culture. Whatever it is, it accounts for the overwhelming majority of console and software sales, and the sales from that audience is not going to Nintendo. None of it is. Who cares if the market is always shifting? It's Nintendo's job to adapt and shift with it. Them not doing that is literally butchering their hardware business, which is effecting the sales of all those Nintendo games you seem to think transend the market.

If you seriously think that marketing is the only reason Destiny sold so well, that speaks for itself. It's more than just hype marketing. The game itself was engineered to appeal to that... market first, regardless of marketing. If your product isn't marketable, no amount of marketing can sell it. Whether you think it's mediocre means jack all, because over 10 million players think it's the shit and are still playing it today, months after the hype marketing died and the mediocre reviews came and gone.

That last point is flat out wrong. The mainstream don't give a shit about platform allegence. Near 70m gamers switched from PS2 to 360 during the transition that gen, and you can guarantee that tens of millions will have jumped over to the PS4 during this transition. There's literally no reason the same transition can't happen to Nintendo consoles. If Nintendo supplies games and hardware the mainstream want, they'll switch systems faster than you can say "console whore." The only thing stopping it from happening is Nintendo.

I think I'm starting to like you, spemanig.
I have a thing for devil's advocates, it's how I fell for soundwave...

The console market has been western dominated since its inception, the west has always had the most amount of consoles sold look it up VGC even has the numbers, of the PS2s sales 100m of them were in the west, of the NES sales over 40m were in the west, PS1 had 70m sales in the west. These flat out show the west has always been the majority of the mainstream, this is something you can't even argue as the numbers are right there in front of you whether you like it or not. What has changed isn't where the majority is it's who the majority were.

Also who said anything about brand allegance try reading the post instead of between the lines XBO is doing everything you say but is way behind PS4, this says two things that one the majority tend to focus and go for just one platform and two doing everything you say doesn't remedy the situation and in fact makes little difference.

You just proved my point as far as Destiny goes, the hype and marketing died out after a month? Well guess what they already did their job, many games are engineered to the mainstream but many don't get anywhere near 2m let alone 10m, many of them don't even sell as much as Nintendo's first parties, marketing and hype is more key then anything else in today when it comes to selling units today.

I never said that the west wasn't always the majority, but never, until recently, has the console market in japan been as irrelevant as it is now. That's what I'm getting at. In an ecosystem where japan frankly doesn't matter anymore, it's stupid for any company to only make games that pretend that the tastes of the west aren't important, which is exactly what Nintendo is doing.

It doesn't matter that the XBO behind the PS4. It's still selling competently in lue of a marketing catastrophy, unlike the Wii U. No one is saying that lack of mainstream appeal is the only reason Nintendo's console business is failing, but it's impossible to deny that it's an overwhelming factor, and is a big part of the reason the XBO is still breathing right now. When XBO fucked up, they adapted and fixed what they did wrong. Nintendo is not doing that, not with it's software.

I didn't prove anything of yours. The hype marketing stopped because Activision stopped paying for it. That has no bearing on the game's appeal. It's 10m+ active userbase does. It doesn't matter if they don't sell that 10m. Even if it's 3-4m, it's 3-4m consumers Nintendo aren't even trying to get. That's stupid when they are the dominating market, and it needs to change.

Except Japan having a shrinking market still doesn't detract from my point, Nintendo doesn't pretend the west doesn't exist either that's pure rubbish no other way to put it, all of their last 4 platforms from DS have launched in the west first for a start.

XBO being demolished by PS4 is exactly the point because if Nintendo were doing the same as what you say they would not be fairing any better or their position now may be even worse, for a console that in your mind is doing everything right the difference in sales is 2.4m according to this site over a console you say is a catastrophe while the PS4 is almost 9m units ahead of it and gaining. XBO also highlights what I said earlier, what helped XBO was the drop in price not the software, the software engineered to the mainstream was there in droves but it was getting outsold by even the Wii U, it was the drop in price that was the catalyst.

Activision not making anymore payments on the hype and marketing after it's in full swing doesn't disregard the huge campaign had a massive effect, it was touted as a 10 year project on a scale bigger then games like Halo. Many of them don't even sell 3-4m either in fact it's hard for many of them to hit 1m, Nintendo aren't going out their way to get these consumers because of reasons I mentioned earlier with the constant shifting of the mainstream (10 years a go the dominant genre was JRPGs while now that genre has struggled) and to top it off these consumers are not going to rush out to buy Nintendo's platforms if these games were present in their library as the XBO shows against the PS4 the's only room for one platform on the mainstream podium and this is between comparable hardware.

Nintendo is far better off doing things their own way rather then be Sony or MS lite.