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Forums - Politics - Indiana Governer signs bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers.

The_Yoda said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

The dildo on the mic was using irony to mock them, but at the same time he presented to one of the Christians the possibility from his testimony that he could've been bisexual and actually had it on tape when he indirectly admitted to having the urge to kiss another man. He was brave to admit it, but how he came to hate the way he was thinking is obvious. Christian culture made him hate the way he felt.

He proved another Christian was a hypocrite and not following the seven sins properly because of gluttony.


You are reading quite a bit into this mans thought process from less than a minute of video ... not obvious at all in my opinion

He was using the irony for humor, which is why the christians thought they were being mocked. They weren't incorrect, but they were also being showed for being either self-loathing or hypocrites.



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sc94597 said:
Wonktonodi said:

Having laws is the groundwork for any view to be forced on someone but It would be more follish not to have the legal groundwork set up to protect people for fear that bad laws might be made. Even your truely "free society" would be forcing views on people, the view that all belief systems are equall. Plus their is a big difference than beliefs and actions. Beliefs: x,y and z are sins. Actions: refusing to do business with people who do x, still doing business with y, and z.

Laws (in liberal societies) are meant to protect people from force, not iniate it. If somebody refuses to do service with another person, they are not iniating force. 


Laws go well beyond prevention of force. some services are much more important than others, where do you draw the line. Then again I saw your post on property views.

you're of te view that people should have much more freedoms to do as they see fit, let the market work things out. I'm of the philosophy some things shoudl be required by law that shouln't even need to be discussed. both have some merrits and flaws and both have a swinging pendulum of societies current values vs the values of some individuals that don't line up and have some conflict.



Wonktonodi said:
sc94597 said:

Laws (in liberal societies) are meant to protect people from force, not iniate it. If somebody refuses to do service with another person, they are not iniating force. 


Laws go well beyond prevention of force. some services are much more important than others, where do you draw the line. Then again I saw your post on property views.

you're of te view that people should have much more freedoms to do as they see fit, let the market work things out. I'm of the philosophy some things shoudl be required by law that shouln't even need to be discussed. both have some merrits and flaws and both have a swinging pendulum of societies current values vs the values of some individuals that don't line up and have some conflict.

I'm of the view that if there must be a government its existence is only justified by its ability to prevent force. Things get too convoluted otherwise. The end result of an instrumental government (used to rule over other people) is two (or more) groups of people divided in a country battling it out for control over said government. Basically that is what we see today in the American political landscape. Hence why I specified "laws in a liberal society." 



sc94597 said:
Wonktonodi said:

1. Yes I am aware I was putting in hypotheticals, however you were getting it to the point where you make it sound like the bakery is the wedding planner. I know churches can refuse wedding, on the flip side there were gay wedding at churches long before it legal under the law.

The big questions. 1. Does it really matter whether or not it is the same as other people's religious views? not all religions are recognised and some states tried to ban other religious laws. 2. Why do the views even have to be religious?  well acourding to the new law in Indiana they do. 3. Why can't people refuse to do something based on their personal morals and ethic system?  While many people can refuse service to anyone, it's why and how they do it that can be the issue. When you have established a business in our society there are pocedures you need to go through and rules you have to follow. Or there can be legal repricussions. There are ways for pepole who want to refuse to do things based on their own personal beleif systems, stay outside the system that doesn't allow for them to discriminate based on them.

2. Gay here as well, still think it was stupid. Yes they might view it as a cosequence of gay marrage but it's still a serarate issue. Yes desire for the law didn't come out of nothing, but it's still going through a legislature and not from the people.

I don't expect the government to take care of the oppressed I demand it, I fight for it sometimes things go well sometimes not. Prop 8 passed here in CA in 2008 by the will of the people but the courts are what struck it down. Yes governments have also done much wrong, but there are tools there that are more efective than boycott after boycott pressuring one busineess after another. Especially when sometime now there is a market for those who do descriminate.

1. In the United States the first amendment prevents favoring one religious view over another. So recognizition doesn't matter. 2. I disagree with the specification then and therefore the law. 3. Isn't that the same argument you guys have had problem with, that one shouldn't have to leave if they don't feel comfortable? I personally believe freedom of association should be a thing, and it shouldn't have limitations. Conflicts are massively reduced in that instance. 

2. I think consistency is important. The only reason why there is such a large scale division between LGBT and the religious right is because it is fueled by politics. If the situation became apolitical it would slowly become a non-issue as the generations who hold such archaic beliefs die out. 

1. That hardly stops places from favoring christianity over other religions with various laws, and recognition matters to many for tax statuses as no profits or not.
2. good, though I know you'd want a law that could let anyone refuse service to anyone or group, hopefully you'd at least require it to be posted 3. leaving the system so you can have full control over your clientel is hardly the same as leaving a comunitty because people there won't sever you based on sexual orientation. one is finding the legal way to do thing (avoiding legal procedures but not being able to hide liabilities behind a company), the other is leaving because of not getting servises.

There is a large scale devision, not because of politics, but through politics. It's fueled by the LBGT movement demanding equal rights. It will only become non political after it becomes more of a non issue.



sc94597 said:
Wonktonodi said:


Laws go well beyond prevention of force. some services are much more important than others, where do you draw the line. Then again I saw your post on property views.

you're of te view that people should have much more freedoms to do as they see fit, let the market work things out. I'm of the philosophy some things shoudl be required by law that shouln't even need to be discussed. both have some merrits and flaws and both have a swinging pendulum of societies current values vs the values of some individuals that don't line up and have some conflict.

I'm of the view that if there must be a government its existence is only justified by its ability to prevent force. Things get too convoluted otherwise. The end result of an instrumental government (used to rule over other people) is two (or more) groups of people divided in a country battling it out for control over said government. Basically that is what we see today in the American political landscape. Hence why I specified "laws in a liberal society." 


I'd be curious how such a government would work. but that should have it's own toppic.



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sc94597 said:
ofrm1 said:


The only answer to this question must be yes, which is precisely what is wrong with the libertarian position. It's ironic that libertarians use the exact same arguments that racists used to use to defend jim crow laws in the south. This is why people like Rand Paul have effectively said that the Civil Rights Act's provision dealing with private business was essentially a bad idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS_qya7w0hs

It's very simple. Just like with any formal system, you create axioms, or exceptions to the rules. Yes, we have the principle of free enterprise, where anyone is allowed to control their business however they wish, including charging whatever prices they wish. Since this principle, when unregulated, results in a state of affairs that is undesirable for society, we regulate it. In the case of private business, it resulted in applying the fourteenth amendment's equal protection under the law to private businesses. The result is businesses now are obligated to accept minorities as patrons, rather than reject them. This is a boon for society. To reject real progress because it flies in the face of your principles is foolish. The progress shouldn't change, your principles should because they're wrong.

But if one believes that most discrimination was government mandated, it becomes much less an issue to let private businesses that are racist fail because nobody is not subsidizing their costs to discriminate. I find the libertarian position to be much harsher on racists (and homophobes) to be honest. 

It has nothing to do with what is harsher on the bigots. It has to do with protecting the rights of minorities in a liberal society.

If Chick Fil A at some point decided to refuse service to gays and there was no law preventing them from doing so, they would not fold. There would be a mass of people that would support the resturaunt out of principle. The same goes with minorities.

This is why principles that guide one's action must be universal principles, like the categorical imperative. Otherwise there will be cases where your principles cannot apply, so you must abandon them, which defeats the purpose of having principles if you abandon them at the drop of a hat.



The_Yoda said:
Materia-Blade said:
The_Yoda said:

If we are talking only about homosexuals then I take it you fall in with the side that believes homosexuality to be biological rather than a choice?

you seem to be on the side that thinks it makes a difference wheter it's a choice or not. the fact is that it's a preference and anyone against it is automatically wrong.

This is contrary to what you said before is it not. Look at your two quotes I bolded. To me preference is chioce which is why I was calling the first bolded statement out as hypocritical.

Preference is not a choice but even if it was, anyone against homosexuality is automaticaly wrong.

I mentioned it as preference because it's no different than liking certain foods/clothes/games... Can't you see how terrible it is to discriminate against a preference that isn't your business?



ofrm1 said:
sc94597 said:

But if one believes that most discrimination was government mandated, it becomes much less an issue to let private businesses that are racist fail because nobody is not subsidizing their costs to discriminate. I find the libertarian position to be much harsher on racists (and homophobes) to be honest. 

It has nothing to do with what is harsher on the bigots. It has to do with protecting the rights of minorities in a liberal society.

If Chick Fil A at some point decided to refuse service to gays and there was no law preventing them from doing so, they would not fold. There would be a mass of people that would support the resturaunt out of principle. The same goes with minorities.

This is why principles that guide one's action must be universal principles, like the categorical imperative. Otherwise there will be cases where your principles cannot apply, so you must abandon them, which defeats the purpose of having principles if you abandon them at the drop of a hat.

There are no laws in many states preventing Chic Fil A from not providing service to gay people, yet they still provide services to gay people in those states. Why? Because they know if they didn't they'd lose a lot of revenue and their competitors would gain market power. A company doesn't have to fold for its owner/owners to be hurt by poor choices. Large companies like Chic Fil A aren't in the business of losing customers or forcing people from buying their food. They are in the business to make money and gain market power. Discrimination was only so debilitating in the southern states because the southern states forced everyone to do it, making it cheaper and less harmful for the people who wanted to do it and much more harmful for those who didn't want to do it.



Good just as gay people have the right to get married, people have the right to have their own opinions



Cool story. I'm happy with this regulation It's only natural that after years of brutal assault of the LGBT community there had to be a reaction. I approve!



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