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Forums - Politics - Indiana Governer signs bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers.

Ka-pi96 said:
The_Yoda said:

this notice the dildo on the end of the mic? Notice all the cuts in that video.  This is meant to make the opposition look stupid. It is meant to undermine the beliefs of the oposition not simply to try to exist in peace as you put it.

Thanks for the video, it was good for a laugh


Not a problem the interviewer had the big guy all turned around



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The_Yoda said:
Aura7541 said:

The cuts in the video didn't make the opposition look foolish. The opposition made the opposition look foolish. Anyways, I don't see any forcing beliefs on other people in this video not to mention it's meant to be funny rather than serious.

@ bolded. There will always be people on whatever side who will try to force their beliefs on others, so I'm not sure why you're bringing this question into debate.

it was a counter to "LGBT community aren't forcing beliefs on people, they are just trying to exist in peace." now do you understand why I brought it up?

 

It is meant to be funny and in some parts it is but that doesn't mean there is no agenda represented.

 

But how does he represent an entire community? You presented that video as a counterargument to the fact that the LGBT community aren't forcing beliefs on other people.



Skullwaker said:
sc94597 said:
I know the question wasn't directly at me, but I thought I'd answer from my perspective. Honestly I'd feel even worse if I went to the grocery store, the clerk gave me poor service, still treated me like trash, and I rewarded him by giving him money for the goods (let's say the clerk is also the owner.) I'd rather see him fail by denying me service than to see him succeed by giving me a service he doesn't want to give me. I'd like all restaruants that are racist or homophobic to outright refuse service to me rather than have the staff spit in my food. I personally like for shitty people to be clearly shitty so that I can avoid them. 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your sentiment, but I believe people should at least have a choice. This is something that was at the center of the world's attention decades ago and has been resolved ever since, yet it's being brought up again? Very disconcerting, in my opinion.

A choice in what? To serve someone or not in the business they built?



Skullwaker said:
The_Yoda said:
I agree with the bolded.  As to how I would feel ... screw em, their loss.  I wouldn't try to force my business upon them though.  My memorial service ... kinda funny ... I'd imagine I would feel dead.

I am talking about belief  you want to make it about civility and respect.  Do I think they should be respectfull of eachother ... yes. Should they be civil ... yes and if they can't be then those individuals need to avoid eachother. 

But people can't always avoid each other. That's the thing. This isn't something that can be resolved indefinitely. People just have to learn to be tolerant of others, and that's the bottom line. There is no reason to act like an asshole over such miniscule things. 

In a perfect world, no one would give a shit what someone's sexual preference is (well, unless they're romantically interested in them), but that's not the world we live in. For whatever reason, it's a big issue and I'm just saying I can see why the homosexual community is pissed off over being treated like shit.

In my opinion, belief shouldn't have anything to do with this. If someone's belief is that homosexuality is a sin, that's just fine with me. I don't care about them and I will likely never talk to them about it. It's when they decide to actively go out of their way and prevent someone else from living their life that it becomes something bigger.

I can't think of that many situations were people couldn't avoid eachother ... in a jail cell, in a jury box  ...



The_Yoda said:
A choice in what? To serve someone or not in the business they built?

 

I'm talking about the consumer. They should have the right to walk into a public establishment and be treated the same as everyone else.

If they built that land on a separate property not affiliated with the United States, then they can enforce their bigotry. But they're apart of a nation that has established laws and people here have rights. They can't simply ignore that.

Would you be saying the same thing if a black man walked into a barber shop and the barber rejected his service because of his race? Is that more acceptable?



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The_Yoda said:
I can't think of that many situations were people couldn't avoid eachother ... in a jail cell, in a jury box  ...

 

Maybe in regards to a 1 on 1 basis, but we're talking about millions upon millions of people. Conflicts are bound to happen. It's inevitable. 

People can't just walk into places asking "Does this place support homosexuals? Am I allowed to be here?" Do you seriously think people should have to do that? How is that right in any sense?



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Aura7541 said:
The_Yoda said:
Aura7541 said:

The cuts in the video didn't make the opposition look foolish. The opposition made the opposition look foolish. Anyways, I don't see any forcing beliefs on other people in this video not to mention it's meant to be funny rather than serious.

@ bolded. There will always be people on whatever side who will try to force their beliefs on others, so I'm not sure why you're bringing this question into debate.

it was a counter to "LGBT community aren't forcing beliefs on people, they are just trying to exist in peace." now do you understand why I brought it up?

 

It is meant to be funny and in some parts it is but that doesn't mean there is no agenda represented.

 

But how does he represent an entire community? You presented that video as a counterargument to the fact that the LGBT community aren't forcing beliefs on other people.

He is an idividual in said community (or at least for the purposes of the video he plays as one) I didn't say he was representative of the whole community.  You said "The cuts in the video didn't make the opposition look foolish. The opposition made the opposition look foolish." so those individuals on the side of the oppostion represent the whole of the opposition? Is that your view?



TruckOSaurus said:
pokymon90 said:


In that case nothing wrong it. There will be plenty of other shops/people that will help with their anniversery.  The government shouldn't make you serve somebody you don't want to serve. I applaud Mike Pence.

If the owner doesn't approve of interracial couples, should he be allowed to turn them away too?


The only answer to this question must be yes, which is precisely what is wrong with the libertarian position. It's ironic that libertarians use the exact same arguments that racists used to use to defend jim crow laws in the south. This is why people like Rand Paul have effectively said that the Civil Rights Act's provision dealing with private business was essentially a bad idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS_qya7w0hs

It's very simple. Just like with any formal system, you create axioms, or exceptions to the rules. Yes, we have the principle of free enterprise, where anyone is allowed to control their business however they wish, including charging whatever prices they wish. Since this principle, when unregulated, results in a state of affairs that is undesirable for society, we regulate it. In the case of private business, it resulted in applying the fourteenth amendment's equal protection under the law to private businesses. The result is businesses now are obligated to accept minorities as patrons, rather than reject them. This is a boon for society. To reject real progress because it flies in the face of your principles is foolish. The progress shouldn't change, your principles should because they're wrong.



Skullwaker said:
sc94597 said:
I know the question wasn't directly at me, but I thought I'd answer from my perspective. Honestly I'd feel even worse if I went to the grocery store, the clerk gave me poor service, still treated me like trash, and I rewarded him by giving him money for the goods (let's say the clerk is also the owner.) I'd rather see him fail by denying me service than to see him succeed by giving me a service he doesn't want to give me. I'd like all restaruants that are racist or homophobic to outright refuse service to me rather than have the staff spit in my food. I personally like for shitty people to be clearly shitty so that I can avoid them. 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your sentiment, but I believe people should at least have a choice. This is something that was at the center of the world's attention decades ago and has been resolved ever since, yet it's being brought up again? Very disconcerting, in my opinion.

At that point it becomes a matter of property rights vs. anti-discrimination.  If one is a liberal in a classical sense then they will believe that the owner has the private property right over the store and its goods, as well as themselves so they should be free to sell to whomever they wish. On the other hand, modern liberals believe in the concept of positive liberty where one is only free in so much that they are able to reach their projected ends. A classical liberal would argue that you can't have everybody be free in that circumstance, because in order for one group or person to reach their projected ends another must be limited. It gets very complicated, but basically the argument is how strongly does one have rights to their property? Personally, as a propertarian I think it is consistent to say that all people have full rights to themselves and their property and should be able to choose how they live their own lives and use their own property unless they restrict other people's usage of themselves and their property in some way (i.e stealing from them, enslaving them, or murdering them.) Since, in my opinion, discrimination would be very miniscule if it weren't for government mandating it (see discrimination in Northern states in 30-50's vs. Southern States) I think it is more harmful to society to weaken one's rights to their property and their liberty (what they can do with their things and with whom they do it.) I also think such laws make things so much more complicated, like identifying who truly is a respectable business owner and who isn't. That makes it a lot harder for me to make proper market decisions about who I want to give my money to so that they can profit. 

 



sc94597 said:
Wonktonodi said:


1. Hypothiticals are fun, What if they just want a wedding cake to order? It's not the amount of involment that bothers these people it's that it's a gay wedding. Yet other instances of things that should be against their religious views don't stop them from doing business?  The popular culture anti gay religious views aren't the same as those with deep religious beleives. It's people picking and chossing parts to follow and the decrimination in the name of religion, is just trying to defend biogtry with a popular religion, not actually convictions.

The church would be where the ceremonial part takes place, they already only aloow those of that religion to take part. and being a member and being aple to used the ceremonial part isn't the same as, renting out halls from a church or other facility, those usually have prperty mangers who deal withthat anyway keeping the Church mroe seperate from the buiness side of renting out the building anyway.

2. Stupid slogan, though still acctate. It's the anti descrimination law that you should bring up though because that's the one that people were suing over. Marriage equality laws and court actions aren't the same as anti discrimanatory laws. Expecting the free market to take care of discrimination is a vaire naieve. 

 

1. Are they actually commiting the sins (or do they believe they are) in those other cases? You were providing a lot of hypothetical statements in your posts as well. Does it really matter whether or not it is the same as other people's religious views? They are religious views nevertheless. Why do the views even have to be religious? Why can't people refuse to do something based on their personal morals and ethic system? I know many non-relgious homophobes.  

Many churches have refused to do weddings for gay couples. Hell, there was a recent case where a church refused a black couple (minister performed the ceremony at another church.) 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mississippi-church-rejects-black-wedding/story?id=16878536

2. That is your opinion. As a gay person, I think the slogan has benefitted the movement greatly. My point was that such religious people view things like this as a consequence of legalizing gay marriage, and therefore can use it to create laws like this one or they might not support gay marriage laws in their states, due to a growing animosity. Obviously the demand from this law isn't a because a small minority of people supported it. If it passed it was because it was the sentiment of a lot of people in the state it passed in. Also, expecting the government to take care of people who are discriminated against is even more naive, because it was the government that was responsible for much of the discrimination in history. 


1. Yes I am aware I was putting in hypotheticals, however you were getting it to the point where you make it sound like the bakery is the wedding planner. I know churches can refuse wedding, on the flip side there were gay wedding at churches long before it legal under the law.

The big questions. 1. Does it really matter whether or not it is the same as other people's religious views? not all religions are recognised and some states tried to ban other religious laws. 2. Why do the views even have to be religious?  well acourding to the new law in Indiana they do. 3. Why can't people refuse to do something based on their personal morals and ethic system?  While many people can refuse service to anyone, it's why and how they do it that can be the issue. When you have established a business in our society there are pocedures you need to go through and rules you have to follow. Or there can be legal repricussions. There are ways for pepole who want to refuse to do things based on their own personal beleif systems, stay outside the system that doesn't allow for them to discriminate based on them.

2. Gay here as well, still think it was stupid. Yes they might view it as a cosequence of gay marrage but it's still a serarate issue. Yes desire for the law didn't come out of nothing, but it's still going through a legislature and not from the people.

I don't expect the government to take care of the oppressed I demand it, I fight for it sometimes things go well sometimes not. Prop 8 passed here in CA in 2008 by the will of the people but the courts are what struck it down. Yes governments have also done much wrong, but there are tools there that are more efective than boycott after boycott pressuring one busineess after another. Especially when sometime now there is a market for those who do descriminate.