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Forums - Gaming - New Nintendo Platform Teased at Conference, "NX"

DanneSandin said:
ReimTime said:


I'd argue that it is not as black or white as that. The cost of porting may not be covered by the abysmal sales, sure, but Nintendo's relationship with 3rd party developers is a very big part of this. Miyamoto gave many 3rd party developers an ultimatum: develop for the WiiU alone or not at all. Nintendo has a very holier-than-thou attitude when it comes to 3rd party developers.

Link?

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/131031qa/02.html

Read A5, paragraph 2 (*edit* paragraph 3 my bad) starting with "In terms of how we view our relationship with 3rd party developers....". I was wrong, it was Iwata who said that not Miyamoto.

I paraphrased it a bit ;) but read for yourself.



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DanneSandin said:
Materia-Blade said:

"Let Nintendo treat the 3rd parties with respect and see what happens."

I've seen what happens: gamecube, wii and wii u support. the handhelds only got support because nintendo had near monopoly in the area.

They did NOT treat 3rd parties with respect during GC era!

At GDC 2000, most software houses were already well into production with PlayStation 2 and Xbox titles, but very few developers had signed up to create games for Nintendo’s Dolphin. According to various sites, Dolphin was the butt of jokes at GDC, and one major respected developer told IGN, “We’ll develop for Dolphin in five years when Nintendo finally releases some information on it”. Another developer said, “Nintendo is making the same old mistakes, it’s not giving us any incentive to bother with Dolphin”.

At the same event, Bill Gates called for mass developer support to drive the Xbox, and Microsoft was aggressively pursuing third party developers by delivering development kits to as many studios as possible. Technical director Jim Merrick admitted to IGN that it did not yet have a formal development program in place.  He suggested that potential Dolphin developers could prepare for Nintendo’s future system by creating prototypes of their games on the highest performance PC that can be configured

In the December 2000 issue of Next Gen Magazine, approximately 7 months after GDC, Hiroshi Imanishi said they are not approaching third parties to make games for GameCube. Instead, they expect third parties to come to them once the GameCube starts growing their install base.

CNN reported that Nintendo was charging a much higher licensing fee for GameCube ($11) while Microsoft and Sony charged ($7 – $9). This fell in line with a report from IGN that Microsoft was charging $8 (and possibly lower) licensing fee standard. One major publisher admitted to IGN that Microsoft had been very accommodating when it comes to fees.

Technical director Jim Merrick said, “We are now and will be in a shortage condition for development kits for a long time to come. But going to low-cost disc-based media is breaking down some of the economic barriers that publishers felt toward the cartridge-based business. So we have a lot of interest. And we’re not going to be able to satisfy the demand for development kits. In fact, probably six months after the Gamecube launches we’ll still be in a shortage of development kits. We just can’t produce them fast enough.”

Read these quotes from this article: http://www.dromble.com/2014/01/07/dolphin-tale-story-of-gamecube/

Does that sound like Nintendo treated developers with RESPECT?! NO! Nintendo have always treated 3rd parties with a certain amount of... disdain.

Nintendo made sure that gamecube was easy to develop for. Lack of dev kits is a problem but it's very short term. licensing fees being a little higher don't equal disrespect, especially with nintendo being mainly a gaming company.

"Hiroshi Imanishi said they are not approaching third parties to make games for GameCube. Instead, they expect third parties to come to them once the GameCube starts growing their install base."

That's exactly what the third parties have to do. IT IS THEIR JOB.

Also,don't mistake what MS did with respect, they were moneyhatting everywhere trying t jumpstart the xbox.



Barkley said:
Materia-Blade said:

The hardware isn't "too different", it's just another myth. all 3 are gpu focused machines that share the same modern dev tools.


No it IS too different. WiiU does not have an x86 architecture cpu. XBO, PS4 and PC do. XBO and PS4 both have 8gb of ram while WiiU has 2gb of ram. XBO and PS4 both have very similair gpu's, the PS4's being a bit more powerful. GPU TFLOPS: PS4: 1.84, XBO:1.31, WiiU: 0.352

The difference between the WiiU and XBO/PS4 compared to the difference between the PS4 and XBO is a lot and the greater the difference the more work is required to port a game between systems. If developers want to develop next-gen title it will be with 8gb of ram in mind, downgrading these titles so they can run with only 2gb of ram would require a lot of effort, the other alternative would be holding games back and developing them with 2gb of ram in mind.

WiiU is too different and would require changes when games are developed with the other next-gen systems in mind.

If all you have to say about them not being too different is that they are "gpu focused machines" I don't think this is the discussion for you.

Wii U's GPU doesn't have 0.35 tflops, forget that. Wii U's memory is better than you think due to edram. you speak as if we have an alien level of architeture difference. And this is a time where dev tools are very scalable.



Materia-Blade said:
DanneSandin said:

They did NOT treat 3rd parties with respect during GC era!

At GDC 2000, most software houses were already well into production with PlayStation 2 and Xbox titles, but very few developers had signed up to create games for Nintendo’s Dolphin. According to various sites, Dolphin was the butt of jokes at GDC, and one major respected developer told IGN, “We’ll develop for Dolphin in five years when Nintendo finally releases some information on it”. Another developer said, “Nintendo is making the same old mistakes, it’s not giving us any incentive to bother with Dolphin”.

At the same event, Bill Gates called for mass developer support to drive the Xbox, and Microsoft was aggressively pursuing third party developers by delivering development kits to as many studios as possible. Technical director Jim Merrick admitted to IGN that it did not yet have a formal development program in place.  He suggested that potential Dolphin developers could prepare for Nintendo’s future system by creating prototypes of their games on the highest performance PC that can be configured

In the December 2000 issue of Next Gen Magazine, approximately 7 months after GDC, Hiroshi Imanishi said they are not approaching third parties to make games for GameCube. Instead, they expect third parties to come to them once the GameCube starts growing their install base.

CNN reported that Nintendo was charging a much higher licensing fee for GameCube ($11) while Microsoft and Sony charged ($7 – $9). This fell in line with a report from IGN that Microsoft was charging $8 (and possibly lower) licensing fee standard. One major publisher admitted to IGN that Microsoft had been very accommodating when it comes to fees.

Technical director Jim Merrick said, “We are now and will be in a shortage condition for development kits for a long time to come. But going to low-cost disc-based media is breaking down some of the economic barriers that publishers felt toward the cartridge-based business. So we have a lot of interest. And we’re not going to be able to satisfy the demand for development kits. In fact, probably six months after the Gamecube launches we’ll still be in a shortage of development kits. We just can’t produce them fast enough.”

Read these quotes from this article: http://www.dromble.com/2014/01/07/dolphin-tale-story-of-gamecube/

Does that sound like Nintendo treated developers with RESPECT?! NO! Nintendo have always treated 3rd parties with a certain amount of... disdain.

Nintendo made sure that gamecube was easy to develop for. Lack of dev kits is a problem but it's very short term. licensing fees being a little higher don't equal disrespect, especially with nintendo being mainly a gaming company.

"Hiroshi Imanishi said they are not approaching third parties to make games for GameCube. Instead, they expect third parties to come to them once the GameCube starts growing their install base."

That's exactly what the third parties have to do. IT IS THEIR JOB.

Also,don't mistake what MS did with respect, they were moneyhatting everywhere trying t jumpstart the xbox.

Short term? They had a shortage 6 months in to the GC life! Getting a dev kit them would mean it would take you maybe a year to get out your first game for the console... The licensing fee shows that Nintendo doesn't really care about 3rd party support since their competitors had lower fees; had Nintendo really cared they would have lowered them and/or been flexible. Like MS apparently was.

And I would like to direct you to:

ReimTime said:

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/131031qa/02.html

Read A5, paragraph 2 (*edit* paragraph 3 my bad) starting with "In terms of how we view our relationship with 3rd party developers....". I was wrong, it was Iwata who said that not Miyamoto.

I paraphrased it a bit ;) but read for yourself.

Iwata gave many 3rd party developers an ultimatum: develop for the WiiU alone or not at all.

Is that respect? A little support wouldn't kill Nintendo. Making sure 3rd parties knows the ins and outs of your console is beneficial to everyone



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

Materia-Blade said:

Wii U's GPU doesn't have 0.35 tflops, forget that. Wii U's memory is better than you think due to edram. you speak as if we have an alien level of architeture difference. And this is a time where dev tools are very scalable.


http://uk.ign.com/wikis/xbox-one/PS4_vs._Xbox_One_vs._Wii_U_Comparison_Chart

Find me a source that says otherwise, all sources i've come across all state the WiiU has a 0.35tflop GPU, debating 101, when you question what someone says provide some kind of evidence.

Edram may increase memory access speed but if there's not enough actual memory to store everything that needs to be stored that's irrelevent. It's not an alien-level difference just enough for third-parties to decide it's not worth there time to develop a port.

Though this isn't the only reason third-parties don't develop for WiiU, otherwise cross-gen games would still be coming to platform as they did at launch (call of duty), so it's not JUST the hardware difference, though it's a severe pain in third-parties ass compared to developing for ps4/xbo/pc.

Also both XBO+PS4 and obviously PC install data onto the hardrive and read off that, the WiiU doesn't neither does it have the space to be able to. Just another difference between the systems.



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ReimTime said:
DanneSandin said:
ReimTime said:


I'd argue that it is not as black or white as that. The cost of porting may not be covered by the abysmal sales, sure, but Nintendo's relationship with 3rd party developers is a very big part of this. Miyamoto gave many 3rd party developers an ultimatum: develop for the WiiU alone or not at all. Nintendo has a very holier-than-thou attitude when it comes to 3rd party developers.

Link?

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/131031qa/02.html

Read A5, paragraph 2 (*edit* paragraph 3 my bad) starting with "In terms of how we view our relationship with 3rd party developers....". I was wrong, it was Iwata who said that not Miyamoto.

I paraphrased it a bit ;) but read for yourself.

Oh Nintendo =( Digging your own grave since 1995...



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

DanneSandin said:
Materia-Blade said:

Nintendo made sure that gamecube was easy to develop for. Lack of dev kits is a problem but it's very short term. licensing fees being a little higher don't equal disrespect, especially with nintendo being mainly a gaming company.

"Hiroshi Imanishi said they are not approaching third parties to make games for GameCube. Instead, they expect third parties to come to them once the GameCube starts growing their install base."

That's exactly what the third parties have to do. IT IS THEIR JOB.

Also,don't mistake what MS did with respect, they were moneyhatting everywhere trying t jumpstart the xbox.

Short term? They had a shortage 6 months in to the GC life! Getting a dev kit them would mean it would take you maybe a year to get out your first game for the console... The licensing fee shows that Nintendo doesn't really care about 3rd party support since their competitors had lower fees; had Nintendo really cared they would have lowered them and/or been flexible. Like MS apparently was.

And I would like to direct you to:

ReimTime said:

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/131031qa/02.html

Read A5, paragraph 2 (*edit* paragraph 3 my bad) starting with "In terms of how we view our relationship with 3rd party developers....". I was wrong, it was Iwata who said that not Miyamoto.

I paraphrased it a bit ;) but read for yourself.

Iwata gave many 3rd party developers an ultimatum: develop for the WiiU alone or not at all.

Is that respect? A little support wouldn't kill Nintendo. Making sure 3rd parties knows the ins and outs of your console is beneficial to everyone

"They had a shortage 6 months in to the GC life! Getting a dev kit them would mean it would take you maybe a year to get out your first game for the console... The licensing fee shows that Nintendo doesn't really care about 3rd party support since their competitors had lower fees"

1. short term. 2. Still trying to see how a little higher fee = not caring, especially when nintendo depends on games alone.

"Iwata gave many 3rd party developers an ultimatum: develop for the WiiU alone or not at all."

"Is that respect? A little support wouldn't kill Nintendo."

It's not respect, but it's not true either. ultimatum, lol.



Materia-Blade said:
DanneSandin said:
Materia-Blade said:

Nintendo made sure that gamecube was easy to develop for. Lack of dev kits is a problem but it's very short term. licensing fees being a little higher don't equal disrespect, especially with nintendo being mainly a gaming company.

"Hiroshi Imanishi said they are not approaching third parties to make games for GameCube. Instead, they expect third parties to come to them once the GameCube starts growing their install base."

That's exactly what the third parties have to do. IT IS THEIR JOB.

Also,don't mistake what MS did with respect, they were moneyhatting everywhere trying t jumpstart the xbox.

Short term? They had a shortage 6 months in to the GC life! Getting a dev kit them would mean it would take you maybe a year to get out your first game for the console... The licensing fee shows that Nintendo doesn't really care about 3rd party support since their competitors had lower fees; had Nintendo really cared they would have lowered them and/or been flexible. Like MS apparently was.

And I would like to direct you to:

ReimTime said:

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/131031qa/02.html

Read A5, paragraph 2 (*edit* paragraph 3 my bad) starting with "In terms of how we view our relationship with 3rd party developers....". I was wrong, it was Iwata who said that not Miyamoto.

I paraphrased it a bit ;) but read for yourself.

Iwata gave many 3rd party developers an ultimatum: develop for the WiiU alone or not at all.

Is that respect? A little support wouldn't kill Nintendo. Making sure 3rd parties knows the ins and outs of your console is beneficial to everyone

"They had a shortage 6 months in to the GC life! Getting a dev kit them would mean it would take you maybe a year to get out your first game for the console... The licensing fee shows that Nintendo doesn't really care about 3rd party support since their competitors had lower fees"

1. short term. 2. Still trying to see how a little higher fee = not caring, especially when nintendo depends on games alone.

"Iwata gave many 3rd party developers an ultimatum: develop for the WiiU alone or not at all."

"Is that respect? A little support wouldn't kill Nintendo."

It's not respect, but it's not true either. ultimatum, lol.

I'd call that a mid term problem since the GC would be half way through it's life spen we someone released their first game... And if you depend on gaming, wouldn't you wanna make sure that as many as possible developed on your console?

So far, I haven't seen anything that points to Nintendo even trying to please 3rd parties, like their competition does.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

DanneSandin said:
Materia-Blade said:
DanneSandin said:

Maybe they are, but they're there none the less. So far I've pointed out two of them. Not sure if there are more actually ^^

Let's compare CoD3 and CoD:WAW; CoD3 came out in 2006 and did 2.23m and WAW came out in 2008 (two years and a lot of Wii's later) and sold 1.93m. Instead of the franchise GROWING with the Wii it's actually shrinking... 2m copies of a game is not bad at all, but "mature" 3rd party games sold a lot better on the HD twins, making these numbers SEEM bad. And let's remember that many of these games had to be build from the grounds up for the Wii since they simply couldn't port over the HD versions. That's time, money and energy coupled with the FACT that the Wii verisons never sold as well as on the HD twins. And as I already proved (and which you chose to ignore in this reply), it wasn't the QUALITY of these 3rd party efforts that hindered them from selling on the Wii. Just to make this evem more clear: Star Wars: The Force Unleashed is the 5th best selling "Mature" 3rd party game on Wii (not counting Sonic: Unleashed) and sold 1.84m with a Metscore of 71. The game sold less than on either the PS3 or X360, even though Wii had a bigger instal base. Now compare that to Red Steel 2 that was released afterwards, with a higher metascore and instal base, but still only managed to sell 600k. This paint a pretty clear picture that "mature" (3rd party) games didn't really find a good hold on the Wii, and that situation only got worse as the year went by and more and more Wii's got sold.

So let's hear these "BS reasons" 3rd parties have for not supporting Nintendo consoles.

modern warfare 3 skipped wii, wich caused a decline, but the games still sold a lot. you should also remember that cod on wii was inferior in technical aspects, even though it controlled better than ps360 versions. I keep my word that it sold greatly and nintendo fans simply didn't keep buying it year after year (because that's not a logical thing when the product is basically the same).

third parties had nothing to complain about their software sales on wii, at least not any more than they could complain on other consoles.

Why don't you go a head and adress the other 3rd party games I mentioned then? How could Ubisoft be happy with Red Steel 2 selling 600k? Or No More Heroes? Truth is, mature 3rd party games on Wii didn't do all that well, especially if you compare it with how well they did on PS360

it is normal to see declines from the same franchises released later. still, those sales should have made a profit. "mature" games sold better on ps360 because they were actually released there. wii sold 2 millions of the old resident evil 4, throwing one or two examples  like red steel and no more heroes isn't enough to say the genres had no audience, just that they weren't exploited properly.



DanneSandin said:
ReimTime said:

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/131031qa/02.html

Read A5, paragraph 2 (*edit* paragraph 3 my bad) starting with "In terms of how we view our relationship with 3rd party developers....". I was wrong, it was Iwata who said that not Miyamoto.

I paraphrased it a bit ;) but read for yourself.

Oh Nintendo =( Digging your own grave since 1995...

I can do without 3rd party on my Nintendo consoles; I mean I buy them solely for the excellent 1st party software. However their attitude towards 3rd party is a tad elitist.



#1 Amb-ass-ador