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Forums - Politics Discussion - Obama's Continued War on Human Rights

Teeqoz said:
sc94597 said:

Government would likely be in there as well. As for your question, such people WILL get weapons. These weapons have already been manufacturered and produced. If you take the entity that stockpiles it out of the equation, you'll have certain people more able to access those weapons than others. If everyone has weapons, then you'll have a situation in which costs exceed benefits of attacking others, and people remain quite peaceful because they are more afraid of losing what they have (their life and possessions) than they feel they have a chance of winning something by attacking another human being. In the first scenario, where weapons are centralized you'll have one or multiple strong entities oppress and or eliminate another, while in the second scenario everybody has equal access to weapons and is on the same playing field, assuring peace

I quote the part of what you say which interests me. The points I quote stand alone, separate from the rest of what you say. If a separate point can stand by itself, is it really a good point? 


1. Government would be in there, in the form of police. That's an entirely different matter altogether, which we could have another discussion about. What I meant was a tyrranical, oppressing government attacking their own people.

2. As for the bolded, does it really assure peace? And mind you, I'm not saying you should confiscate guns altogether (with all the guns in circulation in America, that wouldn't be possible regardless). 

3. Your statement there actually perfectly illustrates my biggest problem with america. Why should the safety of people be based on suspicion and fear?

1. Government gets more oppressive the more desparate it is, and the less it can afford to allow liberties. Nevertheless, the private ownership of guns scares an oppressive government, because the more oppressive the government the more likely individuals will use their guns to kill those who are doing the oppressing. It doesn't matter if said individuals can't take down an entire military, the sheer massive number of them will be able to target the heads of the hydra (the people calling the shots.) And that is a personal thing for such people. So they know, the first thing they need to do is take guns out of peoples hands for their own sake, not for the sake of the people they're taking it from. 

2. It assures peace in the same way states  having nuclear bombs assures peace among them. They are afraid to attack each-other because it will cost them more than they'd get. 

3. Because there is no other way you can assure long term safety than to take it in your own hands. For the short term things might seem peachy and nice if you have some other entity do it for you, but history tells us that can go to shit, and when it does the people who are able to be the most prepared are the ones with more secured freedoms. For that reason I feel safer in the United States. If some country tried to invade the United States I'd feel safer knowing people have guns. If elite in this country think they can get away with things that are not right, I feel safer knowing there are teeth to back up any threat we make against them, and that these teeth are just as sharp as there's, or at least the sufficient amount of sharpness. If there is civil unrest, I feel safer knowing that there is a means to protect myself and the people I cherish. I don't find dependency on a third party very safe, as that third party is only so reliable. 



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Teeqoz said:
SocialistSlayer said:
Teeqoz said:
NobleTeam360 said:

Self defense maybe? 


You use an AR 15 rifle for self defense? Talk about overkill.

AR's are pretty low powered rifles actually


Handguns are even lower powered weapons.

so you arent against Ar's, you are against all rifles?

but handguns (inherently weaker) are fine, even though they comprise of like 80% of gun homicides?



 

sc94597 said:
Teeqoz said:


1. Government would be in there, in the form of police. That's an entirely different matter altogether, which we could have another discussion about. What I meant was a tyrranical, oppressing government attacking their own people.

2. As for the bolded, does it really assure peace? And mind you, I'm not saying you should confiscate guns altogether (with all the guns in circulation in America, that wouldn't be possible regardless). 

3. Your statement there actually perfectly illustrates my biggest problem with america. Why should the safety of people be based on suspicion and fear?

1. Government gets more oppressive the more desparate it is, and the less it can afford to allow liberties. Nevertheless, the private ownership of guns scares an oppressive government, because the more oppressive the government the more likely individuals will use their guns to kill those who are doing the oppressing. It doesn't matter if said individuals can't take down an entire military, the sheer massive number of them will be able to target the heads of the hydra (the people calling the shots.) And that is a personal thing for such people. So they know, the first thing they need to do is take guns out of peoples hands for their own sake, not for the sake of the people they're taking it from. 

2. It assures peace in the same way states  having nuclear bombs assures peace among them. They are afraid to attack each-other because it will cost them more than they'd get. 

3. Because there is no other way you can assure long term safety than to take it in your own hands. For the short term things might seem peachy and nice if you have some other entity do it for you, but history tells us that can go to shit, and when it does the people who are able to be the most prepared are the ones with more secured freedoms. For that reason I feel safer in the United States. If some country tried to invade the United States I'd feel safer knowing people have guns. If elite in this country think they can get away with things that are not right, I feel safer knowing there are teeth to back up any threat we make against them, and that these teeth are just as sharp as there's, or at least the sufficient amount of sharpness. If there is civil unrest, I feel safer knowing that there is a means to protect myself and the people I cherish. I don't find dependency on a third party very safe, as that third party is only so reliable. 


Your first paragraph is merely a result of your third. Again, you're basing things on suspicion and fear. You can call me (and all other Norwegians) naive, but it seems like it works a bit better to build your society on mutual trust rather than mutual suspicion. But again, it seems like you think I should all guns should be outlawed altogether. That's not the case.



Teeqoz said:

Your first paragraph is merely a result of your third. Again, you're basing things on suspicion and fear. You can call me (and all other Norwegians) naive, but it seems like it works a bit better to build your society on mutual trust rather than mutual suspicion. But again, it seems like you think I should all guns should be outlawed altogether. That's not the case.

Trust comes into play as well. It's just that trust is a short-term thing, and it is something earned. My point is, in such scenarios it would be beneficial to have the AR-15 you say is not useful. Why? Because it better deals with group aggression. A clear example is the LA riots found in the 90's. During these riots people were raiding all kind of stores. There were these Korean immigrants with a grocery store with higher powered weapons. Their store was not robbed. And they didn't even have to kill anybody. 


View on YouTube

Where were the police in this situation? 



JinxRake said:
Funny how most of us here in Europe don't live with the fear of being shot down in our homes or on the street or in schools by some random crazy lunatic.


But in the US the massive abundance of guns already exists. Therefore people feel the need to have a gun to defend from those guns that are in the hands of criminals. Just like with health care, America is fucked. They don't even understand healthcare from other countries I.e they don't have any public hospitals so can't have public healthcare. Europeans don't get that and Americans don't either. Similar to the gun scenario. We dont get it because we in Europe grew up in safe environments. The USA is a sesspoll of violence. Just in the 

last few days there have been 4 shooting deaths near my town. In Ireland, in a city the same size, in 4 years there was one murder and it was a massive deal. So here in the US, you might actually need a gun to defend yourself? I dunno, but be open minded. 



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Teddy said:
Guns are and should be under control, you cannot take a gun anywhere you want so they are controlled.

I am of the opinion you don't need them. In the UK we do fine without them.

In films and games is fine that isn't reality.


Yes, but being fair, if there was a massive amount of black market guns and bad guys were shooting up your neighborhood, wouldn't you feel the need to protect yourself? Just being open minded but when I first moved to the U.S., I felt as you do. After a few years I realize that it's just such a fucked up mess, and there are soooo many guns around, that eventually, I may need a gun to defend my family. Americans won't admit it, but gun crime here is nuts and that's the reason the non criminals feel the need to have a gun.



JinxRake said:
Funny how most of us here in Europe don't live with the fear of being shot down in our homes or on the street or in schools by some random crazy lunatic.


Most Americans dont have have that fear either..... just because we own guns doesnt mean we go around shooting everybody lol



      

Gun ownership doesn't fit into Obombers socialist utopia agenda.



lolz2222222222222222 said:
JinxRake said:
Funny how most of us here in Europe don't live with the fear of being shot down in our homes or on the street or in schools by some random crazy lunatic.


Most Americans dont have have that fear either..... just because we own guns doesnt mean we go around shooting everybody lol


The murder rate in the US is insane and yes, many people here do fear being shot down. A realistic fear even in Wisconsin. Why else would people feel the need to buy a gun? To defend themselves from being shot down. There is no other reason. Either buy a gun to defend yourself, thus you fear being shot down, or you buy a gun to do the shooting down. 

Or are you saying that people don't need guns to defend themselves?



JinxRake said:
Funny how most of us here in Europe don't live with the fear of being shot down in our homes or on the street or in schools by some random crazy lunatic.


Yes.Because Charlie Hebdo never happened.