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Forums - General Discussion - Ben Stein to take on Darwinism on April 18

Kasz216 said:
The_vagabond7 said:

Good lord, This is just ridiculous. So anywho, ben stein had little to do with the movie he was just a hired voice for the film. The movie was planned and written by Kevin Miller who claims his research for the film came from books such as "From Darwin To Hitler" which is a propaganda book in and of itself. His blog also has a religion section where he talks about how emotionally moving it was to be yards away from the pope. In his blog he shows his ridiculous bias with the comment

"...no one is arguing that Darwinism is a sufficient condition for Nazism, but it is a necessary one, because Darwinism provided the philosophical and scientific justifications for pre-existing prejudices and hatreds."<---(if anyone here believes this I will explain how stupid of an argument that is)

Also to quote ben stein (When asked what prep work he did for the movie):
"[I did] Some [reading to prep for Expelled]. I read one book cover to cover, From Darwin to Hitler, and that was a very interesting book--one of these rare books I wish had been even longer."

 

Anybody that thinks that this is a sound, thought provoking documentary has got to open their eyes. This is a propaganda film that uses extremely dirty underhanded methods to create the illusion of controversy. Go to http://www.expelledexposed.com/ for both a very thorough refutation of the claims in the movie, but also a look at how the movie was made and who made it. It's disgusting, it's intellectual vandalism, and it's crap like this that is hurting our education system.


 Well I could see how Darwnism would give some false justification for the killing of the hanicapped or at least their sterilzation along with those who have gentic disorders.  Other then that it'd seem you'd want as diverse a gene pool as you could get... unless like, you found that jewish people and gypsies were less likely to have beneficial mutations. 

Really ANY genetics would lead you to that kind of "justification" for sterilizing or killing the handicapped and those with genetic diseases... if you wanted to go all amoral and facist on people anyway.

The rest of it of course seemed very Anti-Darwin as Hitler's goal was to bring everyone to one genetic clone basically the ultra german.  Which would be unable to adapt and when the wrong circumstance occured collapse. 

 


 

If we want to be accurate, here, the real precursor to Nazism (in a scientif context) comes from Herbert Spencer, whose notions of Social Darwinism informed Nazi social theory. The problem is that, despite the name, Spencer's  Social Darwism actually predates Origin of the Species - Darwin's name was added later (I guess to give it added credibility).  Unfortunately it is also Spencer who coined the term "survival of the fittest", which is also used today as a synonym for natural selection (though some will take issue with this).

Spencer was also not truly Darwinian. Spencer believed that evolution progressed along predetermined pathways (Darwin did not), and his notions of "superiority" purely Lamarckian, not Darwinian. However Spencer was far from an evil man and would have been horrified by the Nazi program.

To push the date even further back, the seeds of eugenics can be traced alllll the way back to Plato. Sparta (of 300 fame) practiced a ruthless but primitive eugenics program that would later earn the praise of Adolf Hitler.

 



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misterd said:
kenzomatic said:
Also only the sith speak in absolutes
Like "All things in moderation," that statement is an internal contradiction.
Not at all. 

kenzomatic is a Sith confirmed!

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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Final-Fan said:
misterd said:
kenzomatic said:
Also only the sith speak in absolutes
Like "All things in moderation," that statement is an internal contradiction.
Not at all. 

kenzomatic is a Sith confirmed!

But the quote originated from Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi, who is most definately not a Sith.



misterd said:
Final-Fan said:
misterd said:
kenzomatic said:
Also only the sith speak in absolutes
Like "All things in moderation," that statement is an internal contradiction.
Not at all.

kenzomatic is a Sith confirmed!
But the quote originated from Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi, who is most definately not a Sith.
...or was he?

But seriously, that only means that it was a contradiction for Ben to say it, not that the statement is inherently self-contradictory.  It can be true and internally consistent if and only if the speaker is a Sith.  Therefore the joke.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
misterd said:
Final-Fan said:
misterd said:
kenzomatic said:
Also only the sith speak in absolutes
Like "All things in moderation," that statement is an internal contradiction.
Not at all.

kenzomatic is a Sith confirmed!
But the quote originated from Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi, who is most definately not a Sith.
...or was he?

But seriously, that only means that it was a contradiction for Ben to say it, not that the statement is inherently self-contradictory.  It can be true and internally consistent if and only if the speaker is a Sith.  Therefore the joke.

Also the next fallacy would be hasty generalization. Which would bring you to a Non sequitur. Which means Obi-wan is not a sith.

 .....search your feellings you know it to be true.

 



"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You are a poor scientist. Especially if you think the moon landing was faked.


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Good read mistered. I learned a lot.
maybe the big problem is the name "intelligent design" I still don't get much of their studies - though it makes sense watching the documentary.

@mistered
you are a teacher?
What game consoles do you own?



I haven't dug deep into this movie, but if it really is propaganda and uses cheap tricks, I'd say that's part of what we ID-supporters need as a counter weapon against Dawkin's (the intelligent idiot) atheistic crusade against religion and faith.



I really hope that last post was a joke. Inferring that propaganda is a necessary tool against science.



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

Slimebeast said:
I haven't dug deep into this movie, but if it really is propaganda and uses cheap tricks, I'd say that's part of what we ID-supporters need as a counter weapon against Dawkin's (the intelligent idiot) atheistic crusade against religion and faith.

First, Dawkin's is respected for his scientific research, but his militant atheism is not embraced by the scientific community. The vast majority of scientists would take issue with science being used to make any theological judgements.

Second, I'm fairly certain the Good Designer would not endorse the "by any means neccessary" method of spreading The Word.

Third, ID proponents claim that ID is a scientific concept. If so, there are legitimate ways to introduce the idea and confront conventional orthodoxy.  That's what I tried to illustrate in my post about Lynn Margulis. At the moment, the majority of the leaders of the ID movement are engaging in cheap hucksterism. If your goal is to put God into the science classroom, then be honest and admit it, or you are just as sinful as they are.



Coca-Cola said:
Good read mistered. I learned a lot.
maybe the big problem is the name "intelligent design" I still don't get much of their studies - though it makes sense watching the documentary.

@mistered
you are a teacher?
What game consoles do you own?

1. Thank you.

2. Yes - I teach HS science and chem.

3. Current generation I own a Wii and will get a 360 when they drop the price a bit.

The documentary, like most biased documentaries (see Michael Moore) makes sense because it deliberately stacks the deck in favor of it's arguments, even if it requires misrepresenting counter arguments (or pretending they do not exist).

I suggest getting another side of the story here: http://www.expelledexposed.com/ before coming to any conclusions.