Hmm... Discontinue Ps2 support?

naznatips said: For the 382,237,947th time people, the 40GB can NOT be given backwards compatability via a firmware update. It's missing absolutely necessary hardware components to run PS2 software. It's impossible. And obviously there aren't 40 million PS2 owners sitting on their asses going "Can't wait to buy that PS3." At least half of those have already upgraded to a Wii, 360, or PS3, and probably more than that.

 Just like you can't emulate PS1 games with just software...or NES, or SNES, or N64. A lot of time and dedication needs to be given to software emulators, they aren't done over night. It's not "impossible" for PS2 games to be emulated on the PS3. The 40GB still plays PS1 games and while the PS1 is much easier to emulate, it's because a lot more time and work has been given to it over the years. The 80GB only has the PS2 GPU...so the main processor(EE chip) isn't absolutely neccesary. What needs to be done is emulate in a way the PS2 games can be compatible with the PS3 GPU. 

 Though Sony has already stated that they are spending that money on the PS3 itself instead of working for PS2 BC. If they took the time and money(which would take a lot of it) to program a software emulator for it, at least a half-decent one could be made. The homebrew community when it comes to emulation of the PS2 hasn't gotten very far...but they have shown it's possible. Even if they were to only get 1 PS2 game emulated on the PS3, that would still prove your "it's impossible!" statement wrong.

 Maybe not that decent, but we have emulated PS2 games on the PC. And it would be possible on the PS3. The question is whether Sony will actually put money into it or not.

naznatips said: For the 382,237,947th time people, the 40GB can NOT be given backwards compatability via a firmware update. It's missing absolutely necessary hardware components to run PS2 software. It's impossible. And obviously there aren't 40 million PS2 owners sitting on their asses going "Can't wait to buy that PS3."  At least half of those have already upgraded to a Wii, 360, or PS3, and probably more than that.

I wouldn't say 'impossible' just highly unlikely ...

The problem is that the PS2 and PS3 have very different architectures, very different instruction sets, and many developers programmed the GPU on the PS2 directly because there was no hardware abstraction layer present (and because you can get better performance from that). What this means is that the PS3 would probably have to perform a perfect emulation of the PS2 entirely in software.

Personally, I suspect the Cell processor is powerful enough to perform a full software emulation of the PS2 if you're approaching the real world maximum performance of the processor. As we know this is not an easy task, and if your emulator has underlying performance issues when emulation an instruction of the emotion engine (as an example) it can dramatically impact the performance of a game running on top of the emulator that uses that instrucion. Being that a large portion of the good games on the PS2 took decent advantage of the system's performance it is likely that any noticeable performance issue in your emulator could render a large portion of your best games in your library unplayable.

Lone_Canis_Lupus said: Just like you can't emulate PS1 games with just software...or NES, or SNES, or N64. A lot of time and dedication needs to be given to software emulators, they aren't done over night. It's not "impossible" for PS2 games to be emulated on the PS3. The 40GB still plays PS1 games and while the PS1 is much easier to emulate, it's because a lot more time and work has been given to it over the years. The 80GB only has the PS2 GPU...so the main processor(EE chip) isn't absolutely neccesary. What needs to be done is emulate in a way the PS2 games can be compatible with the PS3 GPU. Though Sony has already stated that they are spending that money on the PS3 itself instead of working for PS2 BC. If they took the time and money(which would take a lot of it) to program a software emulator for it, at least a half-decent one could be made. The homebrew community when it comes to emulation of the PS2 hasn't gotten very far...but they have shown it's possible. Even if they were to only get 1 PS2 game emulated on the PS3, that would still prove your "it's impossible!" statement wrong. Maybe not that decent, but we have emulated PS2 games on the PC. And it would be possible on the PS3. The question is whether Sony will actually put money into it or not.

Even the 80GB doesn't do full software emulation, because full software emulation is extremely buggy.  There are a multitude of issues with games on on the 80GB as it is because partial emulation still creates issues.  If the PS3 tried to emulate PS2 games without the GPU by complete software emulation the issues would make the vast majority of the game library unplayably buggy.   

It's not impossible because an emulator can't be run on the PS3, it's impossible because a good emulator can't be run on the PS3.  

naznatips said: Lone_Canis_Lupus said: Just like you can't emulate PS1 games with just software...or NES, or SNES, or N64. A lot of time and dedication needs to be given to software emulators, they aren't done over night. It's not "impossible" for PS2 games to be emulated on the PS3. The 40GB still plays PS1 games and while the PS1 is much easier to emulate, it's because a lot more time and work has been given to it over the years. The 80GB only has the PS2 GPU...so the main processor(EE chip) isn't absolutely neccesary. What needs to be done is emulate in a way the PS2 games can be compatible with the PS3 GPU. Though Sony has already stated that they are spending that money on the PS3 itself instead of working for PS2 BC. If they took the time and money(which would take a lot of it) to program a software emulator for it, at least a half-decent one could be made. The homebrew community when it comes to emulation of the PS2 hasn't gotten very far...but they have shown it's possible. Even if they were to only get 1 PS2 game emulated on the PS3, that would still prove your "it's impossible!" statement wrong. Maybe not that decent, but we have emulated PS2 games on the PC. And it would be possible on the PS3. The question is whether Sony will actually put money into it or not. Even the 80GB doesn't do full software emulation, because full software emulation is extremely buggy. There are a multitude of issues with games on on the 80GB as it is because partial emulation still creates issues. If the PS3 tried to emulate PS2 games without the GPU by complete software emulation the issues would make the vast majority of the game library unplayably buggy. It's not impossible because an emulator can't be run on the PS3, it's impossible because a good emulator can't be run on the PS3.

 Now you're taking it out of context. You said it was "IMPOSSIBLE" to program a software emulator. You didn't give any specifics as in "good", just impossible. Watch what you say. And even PC emulators haven't reached that perfection for PS2 games...they have glitchy issues as well. The 80GB emulator isn't "perfect", software emulators usually take a lot of time to achieve something like that. It is decent though and will play most PS2 games...even if some glitches with the emulation show up.

 Given enough time and work, a really decent emulator can be run on the PS3 as well as the PC. The PS2 was only 300mhz, so recent PCs and the PS3 definitely have the power....just a lot of time on perfecting an emulator is needed. As HappySqurriel said, this Cell could probably handle a full software emulation of the PS2, it's just not an easy task and would take a LOT of work. Software emulators are never easy to make, a lot of time and work really does need to be put into them...especially when trying to emulate a system of a different architecture. 

 

Even if this was a joke post, you're spot-on. This is exactly the kind of ass-backwards thing they would do. It goes back to what I was talking about in this thread a few months back: Sony's strategy so far has consisted of attempts to force or trick people into buying the PS3 rather than to attract them with incentives.

Cutting backwards compatibility was the single worst move they could have made for convincing PS2 owners to upgrade. Without it, they have no reason to choose PS3 over another console. Until Sony brings it back in on a low-end model, any "targeting" of PS2 owners they do is just empty mouth-flapping.

Sorry, that was my fault originally then. I shouldn't have said impossible, just that it wouldn't be in a reasonable state of playability. I doubt Sony is willing to devote dozens of their best programmers to a year of work on creating a reasonably functional full software emulation program, that even then would undoubtedly be far worse than the current existing 80GB partial software emulator (which they still have many employees working on in order to fix the issues).

Chadius said: Cheebee said: Munkeh111 said: 1) Price cut 2) full backwards compat 3) continued PS2 franchises Wait, backwards compatibility? So they're gonna release ANOTHER model? :s Yeah that sounds like a smart idea. How many models of the PS3 are out there already, anyway? It's getting way too confusing for consumers, especially if they're to go after the more casual PS2/Wii crowd. Even hardcore gamers can't tell all those different versions apart sometimes. The "easy" way is to include a firmware update to add software BC. I have no idea how hard that would be though.

It's hard when you have a library of more than 2000 games.  Which console in history has a bigger library than PS2?  Also, the 40G PS3 doesn't come with the GS chip, which makes it even more challenging.  

naznatips said: Sorry, that was my fault originally then. I shouldn't have said impossible, just that it wouldn't be in a reasonable state of playability. I doubt Sony is willing to devote dozens of their best programmers to a year of work on creating a reasonably functional full software emulation program, that even then would undoubtedly be far worse than the current existing 80GB partial software emulator (which they still have many employees working on in order to fix the issues).

 Depends on which emulator gets more time and devotion to improve. But you are correct, Sony has already stated that they're setting aside that kind of money for the PS3 alone. They need to keep it's momentum it's been gaining up and worry about BC later.

naznatips said: Sorry, that was my fault originally then. I shouldn't have said impossible, just that it wouldn't be in a reasonable state of playability. I doubt Sony is willing to devote dozens of their best programmers to a year of work on creating a reasonably functional full software emulation program, that even then would undoubtedly be far worse than the current existing 80GB partial software emulator (which they still have many employees working on in order to fix the issues).

 Well if Sony doesn't do it, somebody else will.  There are emulators for every system on PC.