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Forums - Gaming Discussion - gamedevelopment: What Destiny's Failures Can Teach Us About Game Design

UltimateUnknown said:
osed125 said:

People's complain with Destiny was that even though you preformed wayyyy better than your teammates, they could get wayyyy better loot than you. Say you got 20 kills and the other guy only 2, yet the latter got a legendary weapon and you got nothing. 

I never played Wow for more than an hour, but from what I understand when raiding, people have to work together and 1 person's mistake can cost everyone the battle (that might be an exaggeration, but correct be if I'm wrong on this). That is not really the case on Destiny because of the FPS nature. In Wow every player focuses on a single enemy, in Destiny there are hordes of enemies (as well as a boss) and in the end, the game gives you a score, when you see that your score is higher than the other players and yet you didn't get anything, is natural to get pissed off. This doesn't mean that Destiny doesn't have teamwork like Wow does, but actually knowing by numbers that you did better than the other players and got nothing, imo, is a flawed game design. People probably wouldn't have complain if the score tab was removed altogether.

As far as I know, your score means absolutely nothing on Destiny's loot system.

The raids in Destiny are the exact same thing. They require absolute cooperation amongst 6 people to complete, bar none. Heck you can't even open up the door to the raid area without 6 people co-operating and standing on different plates, let alone fighting bosses or figuring out the puzzles inside. In fact, Destiny's best gear, which are raid gear and exotics come from completing various parts of the raid. Since everyone is contributing significantly to complete the raid (or else you couldn't even progress within it), loot drops are well earned overall. Plus the drops are more generous there, especially with the new raid. I have not seen anyone really complain about the raids. They are mad fun. It's just the boring SP missions that suck.

Also Destiny does have a surefire way of getting the best gear, i.e. exotics. It is through the vendor Xur who comes every weekend. Sure what he sells is random and you may not get exactly what you want every week, but he will sell guaranteed exotic gear and guns every week. He has sold almost every exotic gun in the game in the past three months of visits, so if you visited him every Friday you would have almost every exotic gun in the game apart from the PS exclusives, which aren't sold by him for some reason.

Fridays and Saturdays, which are days he is available have famously become known as Xursdays amongst Destiny fans. These days are filled with nothing but anticipation and fun.

I mentioned later that Destiny does require teamwork, never implied that it didn't. The problem (like I mentioned in post) is the scoreboard at the end of a mission, the problem comes with this.

It's been a while since I played Destiny, I don't own the game but I played it very extensively over a friend's house when it launched, so I don't know if some of the initial complains have been fixed.



Nintendo and PC gamer

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osed125 said:

People's complain with Destiny was that even though you preformed wayyyy better than your teammates, they could get wayyyy better loot than you. Say you got 20 kills and the other guy only 2, yet the latter got a legendary weapon and you got nothing. 

I never played Wow for more than an hour, but from what I understand when raiding, people have to work together and 1 person's mistake can cost everyone the battle (that might be an exaggeration, but correct be if I'm wrong on this). That is not really the case on Destiny because of the FPS nature. In Wow every player focuses on a single enemy, in Destiny there are hordes of enemies (as well as a boss) and in the end, the game gives you a score, when you see that your score is higher than the other players and yet you didn't get anything, is natural to get pissed off. This doesn't mean that Destiny doesn't have teamwork like Wow does, but actually knowing by numbers that you did better than the other players and got nothing, imo, is a flawed game design. People probably wouldn't have complain if the score tab was removed altogether.

As far as I know, your score means absolutely nothing on Destiny's loot system.

I don't know about some of that with Destiny but WoW raids are long and complex, often with multiple enemies in a boss fight where people have to take on different assignments.  Yeah, one person can blow a raid but you often have undergeared people along who contribute very little--which is fine, of course, as they need better gear to raise their level and you're not going to beat the hardest content until everyone is well-geared.

None of that much matters when getting loot, though.  That dagger I was talking about, Perdition's Blade, the one time I saw it drop, I was the second best Rogue in our guild in terms of DPS but it ended up going to a scrub who quit the guild the next week.  It was like being kicked in the chest.

You're probably right about the score, though.  In WoW, the game didn't tell you anything, you had to install third-party DPS programs to compare your numbers to others.  That's probably the best way.



pokoko said:
osed125 said:

People's complain with Destiny was that even though you preformed wayyyy better than your teammates, they could get wayyyy better loot than you. Say you got 20 kills and the other guy only 2, yet the latter got a legendary weapon and you got nothing. 

I never played Wow for more than an hour, but from what I understand when raiding, people have to work together and 1 person's mistake can cost everyone the battle (that might be an exaggeration, but correct be if I'm wrong on this). That is not really the case on Destiny because of the FPS nature. In Wow every player focuses on a single enemy, in Destiny there are hordes of enemies (as well as a boss) and in the end, the game gives you a score, when you see that your score is higher than the other players and yet you didn't get anything, is natural to get pissed off. This doesn't mean that Destiny doesn't have teamwork like Wow does, but actually knowing by numbers that you did better than the other players and got nothing, imo, is a flawed game design. People probably wouldn't have complain if the score tab was removed altogether.

As far as I know, your score means absolutely nothing on Destiny's loot system.

I don't know about some of that with Destiny but WoW raids are long and complex, often with multiple enemies in a boss fight where people have to take on different assignments.  Yeah, one person can blow a raid but you often have undergeared people along who contribute very little--which is fine, of course, as they need better gear to raise their level and you're not going to beat the hardest content until everyone is well-geared.

None of that much matters when getting loot, though.  That dagger I was talking about, Perdition's Blade, the one time I saw it drop, I was the second best Rogue in our guild in terms of DPS but it ended up going to a scrub who quit the guild the next week.  It was like being kicked in the chest.

You're probably right about the score, though.  In WoW, the game didn't tell you anything, you had to install third-party DPS programs to compare your numbers to others.  That's probably the best way.

I never played WoW (or any MMOs for that matter) but the more I read about your explanation of WoW the more I realise how much Destiny was inspired by it. The raids you describe are pretty much exactly the same experience you have doing the raids in Destiny, which are the highest level and most difficult content in the game, giving the best loot. Every member has to pull their weight. Even one underleveled guy who isn't doing good will screw you up big time. Sure you can have some incredibly fly people who can carry some others but generally everyone needs to play their own unique part, often needing to do a different task than the others.

The loot drops in Destiny in raids are also random, not affected by the performance of individuals but since to complete it everyone needs to pull their weight in the first place, there are few complaints (not completely) about people getting undeserved rewards. Plus the loot table for the raids is not nearly as bad as what you describe for WoW. The new raid in fact actually keeps track of what gear you've gotten and is more likely to drop you a piece you are missing the longer you don't get it. I hope they implement this into the rest of the game besides just the raids since this would alleviate a lot of the problems people have with the RNG. But if you're doing raids in Destiny once every week, you really should have a bunch of nice gear over time. The payout is good on the hard difficulty. I have every single raid armour and weapon from the first raid multiple times over.



 

UltimateUnknown said:

The raids in Destiny are the exact same thing. They require absolute cooperation amongst 6 people to complete, bar none. Heck you can't even open up the door to the raid area without 6 people co-operating and standing on different plates, let alone fighting bosses or figuring out the puzzles inside. In fact, Destiny's best gear, which are raid gear and exotics come from completing various parts of the raid. Since everyone is contributing significantly to complete the raid (or else you couldn't even progress within it), loot drops are well earned overall. Plus the drops are more generous there, especially with the new raid. I have not seen anyone really complain about the raids. They are mad fun. It's just the boring SP missions that suck.

Also Destiny does have a surefire way of getting the best gear, i.e. exotics. It is through the vendor Xur who comes every weekend. Sure what he sells is random and you may not get exactly what you want every week, but he will sell guaranteed exotic gear and guns every week. He has sold almost every exotic gun in the game in the past three months of visits, so if you visited him every Friday you would have almost every exotic gun in the game apart from the PS exclusives, which aren't sold by him for some reason.

Fridays and Saturdays, which are days he is available have famously become known as Xursdays amongst Destiny fans. These days are filled with nothing but anticipation and fun.

I don´t know if you read the full article, but the Xur randoness and timely aperance is one of the complains.

And can´t you see that he is flatout a way to exploit players, frorcing them to log every weekend for a chance of geting a better weapon or a weapon of your liking? 



Dark_Feanor said:
UltimateUnknown said:

The raids in Destiny are the exact same thing. They require absolute cooperation amongst 6 people to complete, bar none. Heck you can't even open up the door to the raid area without 6 people co-operating and standing on different plates, let alone fighting bosses or figuring out the puzzles inside. In fact, Destiny's best gear, which are raid gear and exotics come from completing various parts of the raid. Since everyone is contributing significantly to complete the raid (or else you couldn't even progress within it), loot drops are well earned overall. Plus the drops are more generous there, especially with the new raid. I have not seen anyone really complain about the raids. They are mad fun. It's just the boring SP missions that suck.

Also Destiny does have a surefire way of getting the best gear, i.e. exotics. It is through the vendor Xur who comes every weekend. Sure what he sells is random and you may not get exactly what you want every week, but he will sell guaranteed exotic gear and guns every week. He has sold almost every exotic gun in the game in the past three months of visits, so if you visited him every Friday you would have almost every exotic gun in the game apart from the PS exclusives, which aren't sold by him for some reason.

Fridays and Saturdays, which are days he is available have famously become known as Xursdays amongst Destiny fans. These days are filled with nothing but anticipation and fun.

I don´t know if you read the full article, but the Xur randoness and timely aperance is one of the complains.

And can´t you see that he is flatout a way to exploit players, frorcing them to log every weekend for a chance of geting a better weapon or a weapon of your liking? 

So what would you want? They flat out just hand you everything? Exotics are not necessary for character progression. They are meant to be rare items that you have to earn over time. If Xur was around every day and it was possible to buy every exotic in the game from him, people would literally buy everything within a week with how easy it is to get the currency to buy things. 

While I do not agree with some of the time gating that is done in Destiny, such as with crucible/vanguard marks, exotics should also not be handed out casually. They really should be earned from doing the hardest activities in the game (Nightfall/Raids) and Xur selling a couple every week. As I suggested before, the only thing they need to do is implement the system they have done for the new raid where the game takes into account the items you already have and increases the chances of the drops you don't have.



 

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pokoko said:
"Having progression tied to blind luck is incredibly frustrating for players, and is simply an example of bad game design."

Someone needs to tell Blizzard or that "World of Warcraft" project of theirs will be doooomed.


Its more acceptable in that game because it actually has an economy so getting rare stuff is not just for personal usuage you can sell it for profit.



http://moongypsy.bandcamp.com/ ~Thank you Stefl1504 for the amazing sig~
KingdomHeartsFan said:
Slade6alpha said:
KingdomHeartsFan said:

I never understood why this game required an online connection.  Its not an mmo, hell you can't even trade items or communicate with other players.

THIS!!!!!!!

I haven't played it yet, but if you lose your connection does the game kick you out or something? I hope going into the future this doesn't become a trend. 

Its funny, the same people that were against Microsoft's always online feature are the same people that support this game requiring an internet connection for no reason.  I guess when Microsoft tries to do it its wrong, when Bungie/Activision try people eat it up. 

That's because it is an MMO. A heavily stripped down MMO, but an MMO none the less.

I'm guessing point 4 is directly addressing the lack of common MMO features.



Sounds about right. Core game design principles were missed even though the gameplay mechanics are near perfect.



I highly doubt any developers or publishers will look at Destiny and come away thinking of how it missed some vital design elements and how to better make games. Instead they will see how the game sold millions with extremely little content and how they too in the future can take advantage of their fanbase to make as much money as possible.



Scoobes said:
KingdomHeartsFan said:
Slade6alpha said:
KingdomHeartsFan said:

I never understood why this game required an online connection.  Its not an mmo, hell you can't even trade items or communicate with other players.

THIS!!!!!!!

I haven't played it yet, but if you lose your connection does the game kick you out or something? I hope going into the future this doesn't become a trend. 

Its funny, the same people that were against Microsoft's always online feature are the same people that support this game requiring an internet connection for no reason.  I guess when Microsoft tries to do it its wrong, when Bungie/Activision try people eat it up. 

That's because it is an MMO. A heavily stripped down MMO, but an MMO none the less.

I'm guessing point 4 is directly addressing the lack of common MMO features.

Okay tell me what about it makes it a MMO.