You guys converted me . The virtue of face-to-face is immediacy of response (which drives me up a wall when i'm communicating with people remotely) and the ability to read subtext which means a lot in this sort of pursuit.

Also remembered another gift card of mine. It actually leads a logical progression: i have $15 for Starbucks and $50 for a nice local chain called Capital Grille, so it seems my path forward is clear. Simply have to ask for the former next time i see her.

The sirloin looks good, but its probably more casual if you just head in for a drink and hit up the lighter bar menu.

Casual night dates, then?

Gah, such strange rules.

I've not read every post, but it seems the problem is too many rules.

There really is such a thing as being timed out of the game. Sure there are exceptions, but generally if it drags on too long, any sort of romantic spark will become impossible.

Plus, it seems to be stressing you enormously, which is never good. I think its clear you need to have a night out that cannot possibly be construed as anything other than a date - or a situation where you're clearly broadcasting romantic intent. If it doesn't go well, that'd suck, but it would be sorted, you really would learn from what you did well, and what you didn't. And there will be other women

Stress is the wrong word. It leaves me with a vague feeling that something's missing, it only stresses me when i'm within fifty feet of her (not being serious here, got over that one a while ago).

Time i thought was only a problem if a friendship developed before romance itself could, then it's really hard to get out of the friendzone? The fix there is that i've really tried to push my angle with her. Not too blatantly, but i'd been pushing for some one on one time for over a month before i got that coffee, then had a flub with putting her number in my phone which led to an expression of keen interest in getting the number. A few texts, then i fell off in a major way over Christmas, no contact for weeks, deliberately on my end.

So i'm just kind of rebuilding rapport here.

americans do

If she's interested in you beyond friendship, there won't be a "friendzone". It isn't about scoring enough points. In the same way that you guys are thinking about women as either "yes", "maybe" or "no", we're just as capable of doing the same to you. The friendzone is not some unfortunate limbo-like place you find yourself lost in because you didn't have the balls. It's a friendship because you didn't both want it to be more than that. And it's not a bad thing, really.

Disagree on the friendzone part from Trashleg... Both didn't want it to be more? ...like a guy controls that... How many guys have said.. "Sorry girl, I see you as a good friend, i can't have sex with you.. you're like my bff.."
Lets be honest.. How many times do we really call a girl after she said "Lets just be friends"..

its limbo.. and girls will put you in there cause you didn't have the balls..

We're not thinking "maybe", just "yes" and "no".

The "friendzone" (or ladder, as I prefer to use the word), isn't an unfortunate place IF you already have someone better, but if you don't: move on. If you do, she's likely jealous or becomes one and soon after you're going to have to forget the female friend anyway. And, the higher a guy is on the "friends" ladder, the worse it is for him.

If Mr Khan is "average" compared to other guys the girl knows, the chances aren't good.

he aint even in the friendzone