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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Nintendo/Iwata's Bias Against The West

Soundwave said:
Jumpin said:

The original post is full of incorrect information, people should do their own research:

1. You claim Iwata sold Rare. Iwata didn't own Rare. The Stamper brothers owned Rare and they sold a majority share to Microsoft. Rare did attempt to sell to Nintendo, but it was Yamauchi's decision to turn them down, not Iwata.

2. You claim Iwata had nothing to do with Retro studios. Miyamoto was the one who made the decision to give Retro a shot with the Metroid license. Retro was purchased by Nintendo in May 2002 and invested heavily in the company.

3. You claim Factor 5 was cut loose by Iwata. The fact is that Factor 5 was not in any way owned by Nintendo, but by LucasArts. Factor 5 began developing for other consoles because the GameCube flopped and LucasArts wanted to expand the profitability of the studio in order to sustain them. It wasn't Iwata's decision, it was the decision of LucasArts and Factor 5 based on the failure of GameCube.

4. You claim that Western Studios began leaving under Iwata when it is a fact that they began abandoning Nintendo during the N64 era when Western studios began focusing on Sony consoles instead of Nintendo consoles. Unlike some of your examples, some of these departures are directly the fault of Nintendo prior to Iwata. A huge example is Nintendo second party DMA/Rockstar North. Nintendo had a deal with them to be the studio's publisher. DMA developed Uniracers, Body Harvest, Space Station Silicon Valley, and Grandtheft Auto - Nintendo during the N64 era dropped them as a studio, opting out of publishing their games because they would not appeal to the Japanese market. This was not Iwata, but rather the previous leadership. Iwata never, ever dropped a studio because the games wouldn't appeal to Japan, but the previous leadership did just that with one of the most important studios of the past 20 years.

5. You claim that Nintendo "stripped NoA of any real power" but there haven't been any such moves at all. What power are you talking about? When was it stripped away? NoA is simply Nintendo's publishing and localization office for North America, it is the equivalent of NCL, NoE, NoK, etc... If Iwata was biased towards Japan in regards to NoA, then NoA would have a Japanese CEO, not an American one. All of the other International offices are run by Japanese presidents, except NoA, which has been run by Reggie Fils Aime since he replaced Kimishima in 2006.

You need to go back and study what NOA was like in the 90s. They certainly had (sometimes very broad) power to greenlight game projects on their own. 

Most of Arakawa/Lincoln's work in the 90s was quickly undone after Mr. Iwata became president (offically in May 2002, though really he was already operating in that position for some time before that, Yamauchi basically effectively retired from day to day operations in 2000). I attribute much of this to Iwata, but also probably to the general Nintendo seniority (Miyamoto and others at the top are probably responsible for a dramatic shift in Nintendo's strategy to move away from Western devs). 

Iwata and the Nintendo today is biased IMO. If Hideki Kamiya was Henry Kelly, a developer in California or something, IMO Nintendo wouldn't give him the time of day in financing any type of title.

We know studios like Factor 5 and Silicon Knights wanted to continue their relationship with Nintendo. So did Rare. Nintendo is the one that ended those relationships. We also know they haven't been very proactive in replacing much of this lost production either. 

Can you stop spouting bullshit with these lies?

A former employee from Factor-5

 "Factor 5 had a very good relationship with Nintendo until the Gamecube started losing the console wars to the PS2 and Xbox. There were some discussions about working with Miyamoto, but most of the dev team was in the dark. I wasn’t privy to the financial negotiations between Factor 5 and Sony, but I’m guessing that it all came to money and leveraging off the success of the PS2 and the high expectations of what the PS3 was going to be able to do (at that time)."

source: http://www.gonintendo.com/s/183256-former-factor-5-employee-talks-nintendo-relationship-virtual-console-and-3ds-interest

Which again is in line with what Jumpin said.

Recorded information by neogaf on Dennis Dyack kotaku's allegation.

Allegation of why Silicon Knights left Nintendo
- Relationship between Dyack and Nintendo still close
- Iwata recommended that SK would become a second party
- Nintendo and SK went different ways because they wanted to create different types of games
- Nintendo were not oppressive but constructive

source: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=559662

dennis dyack on why he ceased the nintendo exclusive deal:

"It's possible that we may do another game with Nintendo, actually. It just means that we've decided to break our exclusivity with Nintendo."



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Soundwave said:


Virtually every Nintendo game sells better in the West than Japan. There's only a few exceptions. 

Which actually doesn't do much to dissuade my point ... if the majority of software sales (and hardware sales for that matter) are in the West, why is Nintendo going backwards and becoming even less Western-development oriented than they were in the 90s? 

It makes literally no sense. 

The Japanese aren't even buying these "Japanese games" that they continue to finance ... Wonderful 101? Bayonetta 2? Likely to bomb. Hyrule Warriors? Nothing impressive sales wise. The Last Story? Not a big hit. Devil's Third? Don't expect the Japanese to support this at all. 

Why not finance say a game from the Darksiders developers or something? It's just kind of baffling to me, it's almost like they are greenlighting the above Japanese titles as  favor to the Japanese dev community. 

@bold: You know... because their IP's have achieved widespread mainstream appeal that sells well regardless of region? Instead of targeting ONE region they are aiming to target a larger demographic? Maybe until the bigger budget and killer software comes they are filling the gaps with niche 2nd party titles that provide a healthy dose of variety that compliments their IP pools?



Soundwave said:
Jumpin said:
Soundwave said:

You need to go back and study what NOA was like in the 90s. They certainly had (sometimes very broad) power to greenlight game projects on their own. 

Most of Arakawa/Lincoln's work in the 90s was quickly undone after Mr. Iwata became president (offically in May 2002, though really he was already operating in that position for some time before that, Yamauchi basically effectively retired from day to day operations in 2000). I attribute much of this to Iwata, but also probably to the general Nintendo seniority (Miyamoto and others at the top are probably responsible for a dramatic shift in Nintendo's strategy to move away from Western devs). 

Iwata and the Nintendo today is biased IMO. If Hideki Kamiya was Henry Kelly, a developer in California or something, IMO Nintendo wouldn't give him the time of day in financing any type of title.

We know studios like Factor 5 and Silicon Knights wanted to continue their relationship with Nintendo. So did Rare. Nintendo is the one that ended those relationships. We also know they haven't been very proactive in replacing much of this lost production either. 

The issue I take is that you are assigning blame to Iwata when he had absolutely nothing to do with any of that. It was Yamauchi who began dismantling relationships and investments with Western studios in the mid-late 1990's. Yamauchi's specific reason for cutting off the partnership with DMA/Rockstar North, was specifically because they were not developing games that would appeal to the Japanese market. It was Yamauchi who turned down the Stamper brothers to purchase Rare, whether or not Rare wanted to continue. It was LucasArts decision for Factor 5 to develop for other Platforms because they felt the GameCube was a weakly performing Platform, and they bet against the Wii. Similarly, Dennis Dyac broke off the relationship between Nintendo and Silicon Knights because he bet against the Wii. Iwata was the one who arranged for Silicon Knights to develop a Metal Gear Solid game on GameCube.

No, Nintendo still had very strong Western relationships up until the early 2000s. NOA probably had its peak autonomy in 2001 or so when they were allowed to market and sell things like Perfect Dark, Starcraft 64, and Conker's Bad Fur Day. 

It takes a nose dive after Iwata takes over as president, and as president the buck stops with him. None of that would've happened if he didn't want it to happen. 

Also Iwata pushing for Silicon Knights to make a Metal Gear remake instead of bringing something new to the table just perfectly illustrates what Nintendo thinks of Western studio development -- they're basically just cattle to work on Japanese IP that the Japanese teams are too busy to do themselves. Eternal Darkness was greenlit under Lincoln/Arakawa, but it never would have been under Iwata. 

It's the same philosphy they basically employ today ... Retro, Next Level Games, Monster Games are basically the only three studios in the West they will work with, and they're only allowed to work on Nintendo IP that Nintendo themselves is too busy to work on over in Japan. And only one game at a time. 

Note too when I say Iwata, I am referring to the general "Iwata-era" which also includes people like Miyamoto and Takeda taking on higher roles on Nintendo's board of directors.

I have to say, I had previously been impressed by the way the OP on this thread was set out; it made me wonder whether I should be looking at things in a new light. But on further investigation, I have so far have found absolutely nothing on the net that supports your claims. In fact the only evidence I've found actually supports those posts debunking your OP.

Regarding everything bolded in the quotes above - these are very broad, sweeping statements with no evidence to back them up. Can you link to the source info to back up these statements?

And regarding the underlined, do I take this as you moving the goalposts since it has now been proved that many of the moves you cited as being down to Iwata, in fact happened before he became president?



Soundwave said:

It is kind of odd that Nintendo has pretty much disengaged from the West, whereas in the 90s they were much more of an East + West company. Why the change and is it warranted? Especially when the West now is basically the entire console market? It seems to basically all trace back to Iwata and even Miyamoto moving up the ranks on Nintendo's Board of Directors. A few points I'd raise:

- Iwata after being groomed since about 1999/2000 takes over as Nintendo president officially in May 2002. His first major move as president? Selling Rare to Microsoft in September 2002. Despite spin at the time that Nintendo would use the money from the sale to invest in a similar Western studio (Zoonami was thrown around a lot), this never materializes. 

- In basically two years, Iwata dismantles pretty much all of Nintendo's Western relationships. Silicon Knights is out. Factor 5 is out. NST is downsized to a Mario Vs. DK studio. Left Field is out. The deal for Star Wars exclusive games is not renewed. Nintendo Sports is shuttered.

- Now you may say 'b ... bu ... but Retro!", but Retro opened in 1999 was supposed to supply Nintendo with *multiple* games in genres like action/sports/shooters at once. That was Howard Lincoln's brainchild. Under Iwata, Retro is stripped down to one team and kept under an extremely tight leash where they only work on Nintendo IP. The same is basically true of Next Level Games (one game at a time, on a Japanese Nintendo IP only). Nintendo does work with a very small handful of Western companies, but basically only lets them work on Japanese IP that they're too busy to do themselves. No chance of an original IP like GoldenEye, Eternal Darkness, Killer Instinct, or NBA Courtside being greenlit here. 

- Under Iwata, Nintendo finances many different 2nd party Japanese titles ... The Last Story, Bayonetta 2, Zengeki No Rengleiv, Endless Ocean 1/2, Pandora's Tower, Fatal Frame IV/V, Devil's Third, The Wonderful 101, etc. etc. etc. Yet they never do this with any Western developer, even though Western devs like the Darksiders guy did make advances towards Nintendo. Nope, Nintendo only bails out a project, like Devil's Third or Bayo 2 if it's a Japanese developer. Tough luck if you're American/European. 

- Monster Hunter was a huge hit ... in Japan. Notice how Nintendo moved quickly to secure that as exclusive? But what about Western trends? They apparently won't even talk to the Minecraft people ... how much do you want to bet if Minecraft was a Japanese IP that there would be considerably more outreach from Iwata's Nintendo on it? You'd probably be able to play it on your Wii U/3DS right now if that was the case. 

- Another example of Nintendo's complete disengagement from the West ... Activision actually apparently offered Nintendo exclusivity on the Skylanders franchise while it was in the conceptual phase, Nintendo basically told them "thanks, but no thanks". 

- All their crossover games too are basically Japanese collaborations only. Hyrule Warriors, SMT x Fire Emblem, Metroid: Other M, Pokemon Conquest, Mario & Sonic are fair game ... but doing that with a Western IP ... nope. 

- NOA is basically stripped of any real power they had. Reggie mentioned they liked Media Molecule (LittleBigPlanet) too and had them on their radar but Sony beat them to the punch. I really have to wonder if a lot of that has to do with NOA having no real power to make deals anymore. Iwata basically granting himself presidency over NOA when he himself admits he doesn't understand the Western market as well as Japan is just incredibly non-sensical. 

I'm not saying supporting Japanese development is bad, but really the above points to a bit of a disturbing trend of bias. I understand Iwata comes from the Japanese game developer community and maybe views it like a fraternity where deals are inked over glass of sake, but really there should be no excuse for Nintendo to be a more closed off Japanese company in 2014 than they were in say 1997. 

Hm, good bloody point. 

When I think of Nintendo nowadays, I think of only Nintendo IPs which are all of course, very Japanese. Yet back in the day they made the leading fps games and western franchises which I grew up with. From the looks of it, Nintendo/Iwata has screwed up in the last 10 years. He has ensured that Nintendo are going to struggle in the long term and no matter what consoles they bring out, it is the bias of games that is going to shoot them in the foot.



Iwata is one of the shittiest CEOs ever. i will be one happy S.O.B. when he leaves or is gone.



 

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Snoorlax said:
Selling Rare to Microsoft in September 2002.

Other games like Mario Sports & Party games get made by mostly western studios (owned by Ninty) even the original Star Fox + Adventures + Command and Luigis Mansion 2 were all or in collaboration made by/with western folks. It's not so much of bias, its just the way it is.

Look at Sony, do you think they want to lose the fans of their homeland? because theyre so biased against Japansese devs? No Sony just has more luck and does better bussiness with western studios and Nintendo with Japanese studios. Ninty owns just as much Japanese studios as they own Western but i agree that they usually prefer their Japanese side, like Sony their western side.

Other than Retro, who do Nintendo own that are based in the West? As far as I can tell, the only other game dev is NST/NTD in Redmond. They have a group in Paris, but they're focussed on pure R&D (formerly mobi clip) rather than game development.

Even amongst the list of game dev partners, I can't see many that are based outside of Japan.



Very clever and relevant analysis. Hats off.



Fantastic thread Soundwave.

Iwata knows what he's doing though. Everything he does is aimed at protecting his own position, even if it's at the expense of the company. Neutering NOA and turning NOE into an extension of NCL ensures that there aren't any threats to his leadership. He has created a highly central power structure where he can surround himself with carefully selected 'yes' men who are no threat to his power.

The Japanese bias is slowly destroying the company, but ensure his position at the head of the sinking ship.



The mental gymnastics some Iwata defenders have to jump through to say that there isn't a dramatic decline in Western funded/developed games (particularly games that don't feature Japanese created character IP) is hilarious.

Nintendo 2nd Party 1994-2001 (Lincoln/Arakawa-era)

GoldenEye
Perfect Dark
Banjo-Kazooie/Tooie
Conker's Bad Fur Day

Mario Party 1/2/3/4
NBA Courtside
Ken Griffey Jr. MLB
Starcraft 64
Killer Instinct/Gold
Jet Force Gemini
Excitebike 64
Pilotwings 64
Donkey Kong Country 1/2/3
Eternal Darkness
Various Star Wars titles
Tetrisphere
Mario Tennis/Golf 64



Iwata-Era (2002-today):

The Last Story
Pandora's Tower
Line Attack Heroes
Endless Ocean 1/2
Excitetruck/bots
Metroid Prime 1/2/3
DKCR/Tropical Freeze

Bayonetta 2
Fatal Frame IV/V
Hyrule Warriors
Punch-Out!
The Wonderful 101
Devil's Third
Dynamic Slash (Zangeki no Reginleiv)
Mario Strikers
Donkey Kong: Barrell Blast


We go from about 90% of their 2nd party production coming from the West to it being reduced to like 30% in the Iwata era (must be a coincidence though right?).

At a time when the Japanese market shrinks and the Western market rises. It really makes no sense on Nintendo's part.



Purple said:
Fantastic thread Soundwave.

Iwata knows what he's doing though. Everything he does is aimed at protecting his own position, even if it's at the expense of the company. Neutering NOA and turning NOE into an extension of NCL ensures that there aren't any threats to his leadership. He has created a highly central power structure where he can surround himself with carefully selected 'yes' men who are no threat to his power.

The Japanese bias is slowly destroying the company, but ensure his position at the head of the sinking ship.


I actually agree with this. Very good points here, and throw in Iwata's micro-managing style of leadership and it starts to all make sense. 

I think Nintendo (of today) with no Lincoln/Arakawa/Lobb at NOA anymore simply is hillariously out of touch with communicating with Western devs as well.

Like when I hear any of Iwata/Miyamoto speak about Retro or Next Level, they almost seem like they're surprised that those studios are competent at all being Western instead of Japanese, lol. They seem continually surprised that sometimes the Western teams are able to do things better than the Japanese ones. 

It's also incredibly jaw dropping that Iwata appoints himself president of NOA when he himself has stated he doesn't understand the US market very well. He is definitely trying to embedd himself into Nintendo so deeply that he can't be removed easily IMO, but I don't think he's making these moves on the basis of what's actually best for the company.