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Forums - Gaming Discussion - The Xbox One: A Lying Failure Machine

LudicrousSpeed on 22 July 2014
NobleTeam360 said:

So listening to what the consumer demands is a bad thing.......

Well you see, if it suits your agenda, you could easily call listening to the consumer "doing the bare minimum" or "doing what they had to do so xbox would still exist" or some equally silly attempt to distance their actions and intent from trying to provide a product consumers will buy.

Still scratching my head at people saying MS lied or that they deserve an apology. These companies change policies and strategies all the time and I never see an apology. In fact the only two times in my decades of gaming that I remember apologies are the RROD and the PSN hacking fiasco, and both of those warranted apologies. Believing your Kinect product to be a great piece of tech that gamers will want and developers will utilize and finding out neither are particularly true is not something that warrants a damn apology LOL. Kind of like Sony calling rumble a "last gen feature" and then quickly coming out with a rumble controller.. there didn't need to be an apology packed inside each Dualshock 3.

 



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Machiavellian on 22 July 2014
Burek said:
Machiavellian said:

Can you tell me who at MS stated you could not turn off the 24hr check in or that Kinect cannot be removed from the hardware.  Was it Don Matt or Phil Spencer or any official message MS sent to customers concerning the X1.  Was it anyone in charge of the Division or high up to make those decisions.  Could it just be that it was one man answering a question that was thrown to him in a inprontun interview where he probably should have not answered the question because he did not know.

I have searched a lot so but I could only find those statements from Larry and no one else.  Maybe someone else google queries are better than mine.

I believe context is big when making such decisions.  When you only have one person making a statement that is not reiterated by the big brass or communicated officially then its hard for me to say MS as a company lied.  You could easily say that Larry Hryb was either misinformed, knee jerked a response or just responed on how he felt instead of what could happen.

Seriously, you couldn't find it?

There are some links in my post (#102 of this thread).

This link here:     http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/license   (some points have been removed after 180)

Article quoting it in the original timeframe     http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/6/4403936/xbox-one-online-requirements-details      when they still haven't made the change.

I quote:

Microsoft is confirming today that its upcoming Xbox One console will need to connect to the internet every 24 hours for games to work. "Offline gaming is not possible after these prescribed times until you re-establish a connection," says a statement from the software maker. Microsoft explains that Xbox One accounts can be used on other consoles to access digital libraries, but that an hourly internet check will be required in that particular case. Live TV, Blu-ray, and DVD movies will work without a connection check every 24 hours.

 

More links in my post to statements to senior Microsoft officials such as Don mattrick and Phil Harrison.

 

Do not shift blame to customer service. All of those policies were official Microsoft policies until they got laughed out of E3 and had to start changing everything.

I want you to read the bolded part of what I wrote and than think about about what you just posted.  Did you understand what I was asking.  I will reiterate it again.  I could not find anyone from MS that stated they could not change the 24hr check or that Kinect support could not be removed.  

What you just stated was the original policy and the X1 software.  No one is arguing what the original policy was we all know that part.  The question is where did MS lie to consumers.  People specificly stated they believe MS owe them an apology for lying.  The post I was responding to stated that MS lied about not being able to remove the DRM and Kinect.  What you posted has absolutly nothing I was commenting on and is something totally different.  In discussions like these people need to read everything as you lose context of what is being discussed.



Burek on 22 July 2014
Machiavellian said:

Can you tell me who at MS stated you could not turn off the 24hr check in or that Kinect cannot be removed from the hardware. 

 

I want you to read the bolded part of what I wrote and than think about about what you just posted.  Did you understand what I was asking.  I will reiterate it again.  I could not find anyone from MS that stated they could not change the 24hr check or that Kinect support could not be removed.  

What you just stated was the original policy and the X1 software.  No one is arguing what the original policy was we all know that part.  The question is where did MS lie to consumers.  People specificly stated they believe MS owe them an apology for lying.  The post I was responding to stated that MS lied about not being able to remove the DRM and Kinect.  What you posted has absolutly nothing I was commenting on and is something totally different.  In discussions like these people need to read everything as you lose context of what is being discussed.

I thought that about Kinect P. Harrison was perfectly clear:

" In a recent conversation between Phil Harrison, Microsoft corporate vice president, and CVG, we learned that cutting Kinect will never happen.
“Xbox One is Kinect. They are not separate systems. An Xbox One has chips, it has memory, it has Blu-ray, it has Kinect, and it has a controller. These are all part of the platform ecosystem.”

http://www.wpcentral.com/microsoft-refuses-to-sell-xbox-one-without-kinect

This is very clearly saying that Kinect cannot be removed. Actually, it was only a few months later they admitted that XOne will actually work without it, in August to be precise:

http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/12/4615458/disconnect-kinect-and-xbox-one-will-still-work

Xbox One will work even if Kinect isn't plugged in, Xbox chief product officer Marc Whitten told IGN.

In the wake of the event in which Microsoft unveiled the next-gen console and its upgraded, bundled Kinect, Microsoft released a Q&A that characterized the Kinect as an "essential and integrated" part of the Xbox One.

 

 

Unfortunatelly, the 24-hour check-in was the first to go, so they couldn't directly lie, because I guess nobody asked that question directly. All we have is an official statement about doing it by MS.



Aura7541 on 22 July 2014

To build up on my analogy earlier, the difference between me in the analogy and MS is that MS took the wrong path repeatedly. What is even worse is that MS tried to justify it. We all saw the infamous Angry Joe interview with Major Nelson. And ugh... the infamous "We have a product for people who can't get online, it's called Xbox 360" quote by Don Mattrick really crossed the line.

Let's compare this to, for example, Freedom Wars being released in retail in Europe. Vita fans complained to SCEE that they want the physical game and thus, Sony responded in a timely fashion. Huge difference between these two scenarios. (Note that I'm NOT saying Sony listens to consumers and MS does not. I'm merely providing examples to point out the differences between listening to consumers vs listening to consumers after not listening to them initially).



BMaker11 on 22 July 2014
Machiavellian said:
Burek said:
Machiavellian said:

Can you tell me who at MS stated you could not turn off the 24hr check in or that Kinect cannot be removed from the hardware.  Was it Don Matt or Phil Spencer or any official message MS sent to customers concerning the X1.  Was it anyone in charge of the Division or high up to make those decisions.  Could it just be that it was one man answering a question that was thrown to him in a inprontun interview where he probably should have not answered the question because he did not know.

I have searched a lot so but I could only find those statements from Larry and no one else.  Maybe someone else google queries are better than mine.

I believe context is big when making such decisions.  When you only have one person making a statement that is not reiterated by the big brass or communicated officially then its hard for me to say MS as a company lied.  You could easily say that Larry Hryb was either misinformed, knee jerked a response or just responed on how he felt instead of what could happen.

Seriously, you couldn't find it?

There are some links in my post (#102 of this thread).

This link here:     http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/license   (some points have been removed after 180)

Article quoting it in the original timeframe     http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/6/4403936/xbox-one-online-requirements-details      when they still haven't made the change.

I quote:

Microsoft is confirming today that its upcoming Xbox One console will need to connect to the internet every 24 hours for games to work. "Offline gaming is not possible after these prescribed times until you re-establish a connection," says a statement from the software maker. Microsoft explains that Xbox One accounts can be used on other consoles to access digital libraries, but that an hourly internet check will be required in that particular case. Live TV, Blu-ray, and DVD movies will work without a connection check every 24 hours.

 

More links in my post to statements to senior Microsoft officials such as Don mattrick and Phil Harrison.

 

Do not shift blame to customer service. All of those policies were official Microsoft policies until they got laughed out of E3 and had to start changing everything.

I want you to read the bolded part of what I wrote and than think about about what you just posted.  Did you understand what I was asking.  I will reiterate it again.  I could not find anyone from MS that stated they could not change the 24hr check or that Kinect support could not be removed.  

What you just stated was the original policy and the X1 software.  No one is arguing what the original policy was we all know that part.  The question is where did MS lie to consumers.  People specificly stated they believe MS owe them an apology for lying.  The post I was responding to stated that MS lied about not being able to remove the DRM and Kinect.  What you posted has absolutly nothing I was commenting on and is something totally different.  In discussions like these people need to read everything as you lose context of what is being discussed.

Major Nelson said you "can't flip a switch" and turn off DRM since "the console was built around it"

Phil Harrison said "Xbox One is Kinect. They aren't separate systems" which implies that removal was impossible. It'd be akin to removing the RAM and expecting the system to still work

edit: and if you take "you can't flip a switch" to mean "it's not that the DRM is unable to change, it's that it'll take hard work and time to change it", well, first off, they literally did just "flip a switch". E3 2013 was June 11-13, the 180 happened on the 19th of the same month. And if the console was "built around it", it implies that it can't be changed. Wii was built around motion controls....you couldn't just "flip a switch" and get rid of the Wii mote. PS3 was built around blu-ray and high capacity games. You couldn't just "flip a switch" and get rid of Blu-ray. That's what "built around" means.



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S.T.A.G.E. on 22 July 2014
Machiavellian said:
Xenostar said:

Yeah i see you just dont understand the definition of a "a lie" then :)

Saying you will never do something and then doing it, means you told a lie.   It really is that simple, there may have been the best of intentions behind it but it doesnt change the fact it was a lie.

Can you tell me who at MS statedyou could not turn off the 24hr check in or that Kinect cannot be removed from the hardware.  Was it Don Matt or Phil Spencer or any official message MS sent to customers concerning the X1.  Was it anyone in charge of the Division or high up to make those decisions.  Could it just be that it was one man answering a question that was thrown to him in a inprontun interview where he probably should have not answered the question because he did not know.

I have searched a lot so but I could only find those statements from Larry and no one else.  Maybe someone else google queries are better than mine.

I believe context is big when making such decisions.  When you only have one person making a statement that is not reiterated by the big brass or communicated officially then its hard for me to say MS as a company lied.  You could easily say that Larry Hryb was either misinformed, knee jerked a response or just responed on how he felt instead of what could happen.

http://www.cnet.com/news/phil-spencer-on-xbox-one-always-on-debacle-we-could-have-been-more-clear/

"We could have been more clear and concise about what our real soul around the product was," Spencer said. Touching on the topic briefly yet apologetically, Spencer outlined how it was a learning experience, but that the blame was deserved because Microsoft fumbled the communication with consumers."- Phil Spencer

We see only what we want to see.



S.T.A.G.E. on 22 July 2014
LudicrousSpeed said:
NobleTeam360 said:

So listening to what the consumer demands is a bad thing.......

Well you see, if it suits your agenda, you could easily call listening to the consumer "doing the bare minimum" or "doing what they had to do so xbox would still exist" or some equally silly attempt to distance their actions and intent from trying to provide a product consumers will buy.

Still scratching my head at people saying MS lied or that they deserve an apology. These companies change policies and strategies all the time and I never see an apology. In fact the only two times in my decades of gaming that I remember apologies are the RROD and the PSN hacking fiasco, and both of those warranted apologies. Believing your Kinect product to be a great piece of tech that gamers will want and developers will utilize and finding out neither are particularly true is not something that warrants a damn apology LOL. Kind of like Sony calling rumble a "last gen feature" and then quickly coming out with a rumble controller.. there didn't need to be an apology packed inside each Dualshock 3.

 


MS wasnt listening to anyone but themselves. It wasnt until Gamestop lowered Microsofts preorder numbers that they changed their ways.



BMaker11 on 22 July 2014
S.T.A.G.E. said:
LudicrousSpeed said:
NobleTeam360 said:

So listening to what the consumer demands is a bad thing.......

Well you see, if it suits your agenda, you could easily call listening to the consumer "doing the bare minimum" or "doing what they had to do so xbox would still exist" or some equally silly attempt to distance their actions and intent from trying to provide a product consumers will buy.

Still scratching my head at people saying MS lied or that they deserve an apology. These companies change policies and strategies all the time and I never see an apology. In fact the only two times in my decades of gaming that I remember apologies are the RROD and the PSN hacking fiasco, and both of those warranted apologies. Believing your Kinect product to be a great piece of tech that gamers will want and developers will utilize and finding out neither are particularly true is not something that warrants a damn apology LOL. Kind of like Sony calling rumble a "last gen feature" and then quickly coming out with a rumble controller.. there didn't need to be an apology packed inside each Dualshock 3.

 


MS wasnt listening to anyone but themselves. It wasnt until Gamestop lowered Microsofts preorder numbers that they changed their ways.

You've said this a couple times in this thread, and I'm a little confused about it. How did Gamestop "lower the preorder numbers"? Did they just stop taking preorders for a time? Or did they literally "lower the numbers" and provide false data to MS to put them into a scare? Because it's not like I could go into a store, put money down on an XBone and then they say "no".



Machiavellian on 22 July 2014
Burek said:
Machiavellian said:

Can you tell me who at MS stated you could not turn off the 24hr check in or that Kinect cannot be removed from the hardware. 

 

I want you to read the bolded part of what I wrote and than think about about what you just posted.  Did you understand what I was asking.  I will reiterate it again.  I could not find anyone from MS that stated they could not change the 24hr check or that Kinect support could not be removed.  

What you just stated was the original policy and the X1 software.  No one is arguing what the original policy was we all know that part.  The question is where did MS lie to consumers.  People specificly stated they believe MS owe them an apology for lying.  The post I was responding to stated that MS lied about not being able to remove the DRM and Kinect.  What you posted has absolutly nothing I was commenting on and is something totally different.  In discussions like these people need to read everything as you lose context of what is being discussed.

I thought that about Kinect P. Harrison was perfectly clear:

" In a recent conversation between Phil Harrison, Microsoft corporate vice president, and CVG, we learned that cutting Kinect will never happen.
“Xbox One is Kinect. They are not separate systems. An Xbox One has chips, it has memory, it has Blu-ray, it has Kinect, and it has a controller. These are all part of the platform ecosystem.”

http://www.wpcentral.com/microsoft-refuses-to-sell-xbox-one-without-kinect

This is very clearly saying that Kinect cannot be removed. Actually, it was only a few months later they admitted that XOne will actually work without it, in August to be precise:

http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/12/4615458/disconnect-kinect-and-xbox-one-will-still-work

Xbox One will work even if Kinect isn't plugged in, Xbox chief product officer Marc Whitten told IGN.

In the wake of the event in which Microsoft unveiled the next-gen console and its upgraded, bundled Kinect, Microsoft released a Q&A that characterized the Kinect as an "essential and integrated" part of the Xbox One.

Unfortunatelly, the 24-hour check-in was the first to go, so they couldn't directly lie, because I guess nobody asked that question directly. All we have is an official statement about doing it by MS.

Thank you, now we are on subject.  I forgot  about Harrison statement now that you found it concerning Kinect.  Context is key here as well.  Harrison is talking about removing Kinect bundled with the X1.  It was already known before his statement that you do not have to have Kinect connected as this was posted June 19 2013 which talks about the whole switch in X1 policy.  Also its probably the closes MS was going to give as a apology on the issue.

http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/update

As for March Whitten, he was just reiterating the policy changed months ago.

As to the bolded part, isn't Kinect still integrated.  The essential part we have not arrived at as we need a few more years to see if MS continue to develop and expand Kinect features.

As for the 24 hour check, the link I provided is your official letter from MS on the subject.



EdHieron on 22 July 2014

The title says all you really need to know about Xbots Lost.