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Forums - Nintendo - The truth about Nintendo

 

What do you think about Nintendo's attitude?

Awful, they should fail i... 189 14.04%
 
Pretty Bad, they should l... 385 28.60%
 
Not bad, they're just as anybody else 188 13.97%
 
Good, we need more like them 389 28.90%
 
Excellent, they don't need to change one bit 173 12.85%
 
Total:1,324
MDMAlliance said:
I was replying to more to the OP, but when I hit reply, VGChartz crashed (it seems), and I lost all of my reply so I will no longer reply to the OP as I don't feel like going through it over again.

The overall thing I wanted to say is that your post is filled with things that are either not true, are biased, cherry-picked data, or simply opinions stated as facts. So this isn't about whether I support Nintendo or not, it's about how poorly researched OP is.

That's really bad. My advice: always copy your comment to the clipboard before posting and, if the comment is big, post it also on a word processor.

Bias, cherry-picked data, opinions stated as facts, I know I didn't but proving that demands a lot of text and iterations. I'm ok with such vague critics that end up being opinions. But please tell me 1 single fact of the OP that is not true. Note that you've separated "opinions stated as facts" from "not true", so I'm really curious about which fact of the OP can be easily proven to be a lie.



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

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menx64 said:
Zod95 said:
menx64 said:
Too long, but I read it all. Sorry bud but I do not agree with you. I use my hard earned money to buy the games I want. I do not own anything to any company nor they owe me anything.

The part that nintendo lacks about investing money back on gamers is a fallacy. The mayority of people who claim they enjoy nintendo games tent to praise gameplay as the sole reason why their games are good, and while I agree they focus a lot on gameplay, reakl nintendo fans know just how detailed crafted those games are. If you really put attention you'll notice the attention to detail put on most of their games is staggering. The may not create those huge GTA/Fallout worlds, those ultra detail racing games or some ultra violent games, but that does not deny the fact that they are tremendously efficient and amazing game crafters.

The OP doesn't say what Nintendo must do, only what they have done.

Personally, I find that gameplay-focus argument a fallacy. Nintendo only invests on cheap gameplay. Not cheap like bad, the games are fun. Cheap in the sense that is really easy to do what they do once you have their talent. Open-world is expensive, simulating physics is expensive, non-linear story telling is expensive, stochastic-animations-based gameplay is expensive, complex artificial intelligence is expensive, etc. Nintendo does none of that. And I'm only talking about gameplay, not graphics.

I, as a gamer, don't care much about graphics. Gameplay and content are what matters to me. And I would never buy a Nintendo console precisely because they only have cheap gameplay.

Cheap? Nintendo mastered the 3D movement with Mario 64. Non-linear story telling? Animations based gameplay? You mean press X to win?

 Did you ever play Mario Galaxy? DKCR? Smash? Mario Kart? Xenoblade? Zelda? Banjo? Fzero? star fox? I guess not since you said they only invest in cheap gameplay... Open world, simulated physics and advanced graphics does not equal better games. Could Nintendo take advantage of  that? Most likely, however it is amazing how making games with symple (I am calling it cheap, since you are really afraid to say what you think) gameplay they manage to outsell the competition by several million units... 

"Nintendo mastered the 3D movement with Mario 64" - This is an opinion, not a fact. I personally think that Sonic Adventure has mastered 3D movement much better than Mario 64.

Non-linear story telling may range from "press X to win" like it is on Heavy Rain (which doesn't mean it is bad) to character full-control like it is on LA Noire. Animations-based gameplay is the opposite of that.

I did play several Nintendo games and I tell you: they are fun but the gameplay is cheap. You, most probably, haven't paid attention to how I defined "cheap gameplay". Read it again, please. I didn't talk about worse or better games, I talked about cheap gameplay, which doesn't scare me at all (what am I afraid of?).

Yes, it is indeed amazing. Nintendo is a good money printer: huge revenues, astronomical profits and obscene ROI are engaging to the eye of any investor.



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

You have to stop calling him John Lucas. Next time i see it, you're out of here.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Zod95 said:
mysteryman said:


@bolded: The foundation of your objective argument is your subjective opinon and your list of objective criteria is subjectively chosen.

@underlined: If we assume the statement to be true, then logically, there exists quality games that don't meet the criteria. In other words, the criteria may filter for quality games, but the games filtered out aren't certain to be poor (see denying the antecedent).

The requirements are objectively chosen (and anyone can freely add more as long as they meet the criteria) but the foundation of the criteria is indeed subjective. Yet, I'm open to other views. And, although other views may be legitimate, mine is too. In other words, they could be different routes to get to different quality games. My route definitely leaves quality games filtered out, you're right. And other routes could catch them. However, I'm not seeing those other routes. Be my guest to show me any.

Nevertheless, it's just odd that Nintendo performs so badly on my criteria. But then, if we start to connect the dots, we realize it's not that odd. The way Nintendo got clinged to old concepts, the way they lagged behind on the generations, the way they shifted their focus to a less demanding audience (kids), the astronomical profits they made and the obscene ROI they got...there are too many facts pointing out to the same conclusion: Nintendo is not committed to quality.


I have previously mentioned using more objective measures of quality (in the UNITY thread, perhaps where your confusion as to my identity lies) such as solid game mechanics, level design, bug-free releases (this shouldn't even be a consideration, but sadly is the case nowadays) etc. but in the end, I'm not here to fix your flawed system, only to point out it's faults. You are searching for a completely objective measure for what constitutes a quality game, while admitting that such a task is inherintly futile due to the subjective nature of the entertainment medium. Perhaps there is no wholly objective measure that will filter all quality games.

It's not odd at all when you realise that your criteria are fundamentally flawed. Not to mention your clear anti-Nintendo bias. There are too many facts pointing out to the same conclusion: Nintendo is not committed to your cherry-picked, incomplete and ultimately flawed definition of quality.



Doesn't matter, had fun.



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RolStoppable said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
You may disagree, but it's at least well written and argued and there are a few good points.

Things like not refunding faulty machines, limiting the number of games by 3rd parties, the YouTube scandal, strictness with region-locking and odd formats to avoid piracy, high royalties, etc do show that Nintendo has been a bit stingy and tried to abuse the market to their advantage whenever they could.

It doesn't mean Nintendo are evil, and despite their low-investment, high profit margin approach, they make great games. But if they want to compete in this market they need to change and I think they have changed to some degree, if only because they were forced by market changes.

Limiting the number of third party games and controlling a media outlet (Nintendo Power in America, Club Nintendo in Europe) actually improved the industry. The limit meant that third parties had to make the best games possible, if they wanted to sell a lot of copies. Additionally, Nintendo highlighted the best third party games in their magazine, so the likes of Mega Man, Castlevania, Contra were the third party games that could prosper whereas the trash was weeded out as much as possible. That in turn was also good for gamers. All the good people benefited while the bad people (who caused the industry crash in America) got no chance to destroy the market again; they weren't allowed to flood the market with their trash again. Very few third parties had so much talent that they were seriously limited by Nintendo's policy of only a few games per year. But the talent that was there could mature, because most of the gaming dollars didn't go to scam companies.

Problems with faulty machines (PS2's class action law suit, 360's RRoD) have not been a Nintendo-only thing, although if you want to quantify the evil, Nintendo is the least evil one (failure rate of less than 1% compared to double digit percentages for Sony and Microsoft). The Youtube thing obviously pales in comparison to the PSN hack and all its details, as well as Microsoft's intended DRM for the Xbox One. Where Nintendo fumbles with region-locking, Sony and Microsoft fumble with backwards compatibility; it's either gone entirely or you have to pay again (like the PSP program, PlayStation Now and the sure-to-come Xbox equivalent); not to mention that region-locking affects a much smaller number of gamers than backwards compatibility. Sony and Microsoft have policies in place that force third parties to add more content if a game is ported late, or require (virtual) parity for simultaneous releases. The point of all this? Singling out Nintendo makes absolutely no sense when it comes to such topics.

Your last paragraph has it backwards. Right now Nintendo is facing financial problems, precisely because they abandoned their low investment, high profit margin approach. Both the stereoscopic 3D in the 3DS and the Wii U's Gamepad are big moneywasters. Therefore, if Nintendo wants to remain a console manufacturer, they have to go back to their old model, not further pursue their new ways.

Perhaps those actions could be justified in the context of the gaming crash, but gaming didn't crash anywhere outside of the US and gaming thrived all the same, and not through Nintendo HW but through more open platforms like PC, Amiga, Commodore, etc. In any case, I think Nintendo should have been a bit more lax after it was clear that video games weren't going anywhere, it's this behaviour that I think diminished its share of the market, despite being widely successful at the beginning. At the very least, it can be argued that they are a company of slow reactions and I believe some of these choices were the wrong ones when they were in a position of dominance.

About the faulty machines, I wasn't talking about the failure rate, but specifically about the no-refunds policy. The PSN hack was not intentional by Sony (though incredibly stupid and short-sighted). No backwards compatibilty sucks, I agree. The DRM scandal was the biggest F you by a gaming company to consumers in history and had they pulled it off the most damaging to the industry, so I also agree. I don't believe Sony has those policies you mention in place, I might be mistaken. Not trying to single out Nintendo, other companies have also tried to use their position to theri advantage. Sony tried to cram all the things they felt like in the PS3 and force them onto consumers to gain a position of power in other industries (talking about BD and Cell). Even MS, who hilariously thought they were the new leaders and could force whatever they wanted, when they had like a 30% market share the previous gen and a weak-sauce brand outside of NA.

About my last paragraph, I might not have been clear, but I didn't mean that the high profit margin approach was the thing to change or that their financial troubles are due to them changing it (I agree the 3DS and WiiU were major fuck-ups, I don't know how I would've followed the success of their predecessors, though). I was talking about the policies mentioned above. They changed their YouTube policies, reduced royalties, obviously the game limit and no-refunds policy, etc. Plus other changes like better online, account system, hopefully region-free games... that I believe they are kind of forced into.



No troll is too much for me to handle. I rehabilitate trolls, I train people. I am the Troll Whisperer.

MDMAlliance said:
Michael-5 said:

Well if you won't agree that the OP wrote a good article, will you at least agree that journalism in gaming is a complete joke? OP does have a bias towards Nintendo (e.g. the royalties during the NES era did partly save the game industry by cleaning out a lot of crap).

Personally I feel Nintendo fell because of Hiroshi Yamauchi's retirement. He designed the ultra successful DS, and play a role in Wii's design. Iwata said he would resign if WiiU sales didn't break 5 million for the 1st fiscal year, which they didn't. He's just not talented enough to run the company, and I feel WiiU was his attempt at replicating DS's design and sales. Everyone makes mistakes though (Gunpei Yokoi - creator of Metroid, retired after making the failure that is Virtual Boy). Hopefully Iwata will make the next Nintendo a proper console. If not, I fear for the company.


@Bold: I suppose.  I haven't read too many gaming journalists' articles, but I do know they aren't the best (sort of mediocre).

@Italics:  I'm not entirely sure about this whole process, and I would probably need to research it more but I personally didn't feel like the Wii U was replicating the DS's design, and I read that the Wii U was never meant to do Wii levels of sales (much less DS levels).  I think the Wii U was much more done because of the Tablet trend going on.  I personally like the gamepad, but it's probably due to my heavy preference for being unrestricted with my gaming locations (AKA why I really like handhelds).

Maybe, but somebody must have realized that a controller that big is just uncomfortable. :-/ I don't think enough R & D was done, Nintendo really just wanted a step up this gen.



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DarkD said:

Look up the contract bit, its on wikipedia, I remember reading it ages ago.  Something about weird fine print being added that gave them power over Nintendo's licenses.

My question is general and to go to the root of the problem: Nintendo is not used to negotiate. See what they did in the 80s. They need a dominant position so they can "negotiate" properly.

 

DarkD said:

So what, they are just supposed to keep using the PC standard even when it will make a game console outrageously expensive?  Here's another standard which you may have forgotten.  200-300 dollars.  That is how much game consoles cost back in the N64 and earlier eras.  Why should they go higher when it will break the price point that's been maintained for so long.  It's Sony and Microsoft that went over. 

There are several PC standards. You have PCs for 300€ and for 3000€. The standard here doesn't have to do with low or high level but with type of architecture. 200$-300$? Put inflation on that: http://kotaku.com/36-years-of-console-prices-adjusted-for-inflation-1485353267

N64? You've just picked one of the cheapest consoles of all time. You call it the standard? The standard is around 400$. PS4 and even XOne are not expensive.

 

DarkD said:

Why do you need evidence that the gamepad is easy to program for.  Controls aren't exactly the hard part of designing a game.  Pretty much every third party that released on the Wii U added a few gamepad features then released it as a Wii U exclusive with a new subtitle.  Batman and Deus Ex being prime examples.  Developers couldn't ask for an easier method of making a game have exclusive content.

You seem to don't understand what a port to another console requires. You think it's just control reconfiguration. It's much more than that. Otherwise, GTA V woud have been already on WiiU along with many other X360/PS3 games that have been skipping the WiiU.

 

DarkD said:

If you want to define the norm, how about any game which does something risky that you might see in the indy market, but created as a core franchise.  Examples would be Boom Blox or Zack and Wiki: Quest for Barbados Treasure.

So, in your opinion, the norm is about risky concepts seen on the indie market but created as core franchises...what?

 

DarkD said:

Those would have never been core titles on the PS3, they were only made possible because of Nintendo's open minded audience.

And yes Sony audience is closed minded.  You've more than once categorized cartoony graphics as being less worthy than hyper realistic graphics.  You have spent an absurd amount of time trying to shoot down a console brand which is beloved by its players and for what reason?  Because they don't share your values?  Nintendo may be somewhat shitty to third parties, but to the consumers they are the most moral group in the entire gaming industry.

If Sony's audience is close-minded, how could a game like Flower be so much appreciated?

Cartoonish graphics are not less worthy than realistic graphics. You pulled that out of context. Read the 2nd reply of this post (http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=6108102) to understand that I don't necessarily consider realism a greater thing.



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

Zod95 said:
DarkD said:

Look up the contract bit, its on wikipedia, I remember reading it ages ago.  Something about weird fine print being added that gave them power over Nintendo's licenses.

My question is general and to go to the root of the problem: Nintendo is not used to negotiate. See what they did in the 80s. They need a dominant position so they can "negotiate" properly.

OK, I'm getting tired of this.  You wrote this "article" about history yet you know very little of the actual details.  It's like you pulled together a bunch of fanboy rants and tried to pass them off as a researched and coherent topic.

"Nintendo is not used to negotiate"?  Thsi is your factual truths?  How about the factual truth that Sony's contract would have granted them full licensing and branding control therefore reducing Nintendo to largely a 1st party role within Sony?   Do you know this at all?  If not, and I suspect you didn't, you're revisionist history needs to end here.

What you call truth is actually nothing more than hedged passive aggression. 

Your statements are tinged with a tone that alludes to your personal feelings.  Even if you don't say something overtly, you mean it with your tone. 

Your "quotes around words" are nothing more than a mask to hide behind.  So you claim something doesn't really mean something and you're just using the terms allegorically but it's purely a ruse to allay bias. 

Your article is non-factual, filled with bias and opinion, laced with passive aggresive attacks and as the executive editor of a video game network, I'd damn near fire you if you tried to pass that across my desk.  Start again, remove your personal feelings, do some real research (you know, call, email, contact actual people from back then), look at both sides, write from the view of the reader and then try to publish.  

I'll give you credit for be able to write with proper grammar and syntax.  You're educated.   But you're biased, misinformed/confused, and seem to have an agenda that you put above the integrity of truth.   And that is where you have failed. 



The rEVOLution is not being televised

Zod95 said:
MDMAlliance said:
I was replying to more to the OP, but when I hit reply, VGChartz crashed (it seems), and I lost all of my reply so I will no longer reply to the OP as I don't feel like going through it over again.

The overall thing I wanted to say is that your post is filled with things that are either not true, are biased, cherry-picked data, or simply opinions stated as facts. So this isn't about whether I support Nintendo or not, it's about how poorly researched OP is.

Bias, cherry-picked data, opinions stated as facts, I know I didn't but proving that demands a lot of text and iterations. I'm ok with such vague critics that end up being opinions. But please tell me 1 single fact of the OP that is not true. Note that you've separated "opinions stated as facts" from "not true", so I'm really curious about which fact of the OP can be easily proven to be a lie.

You've done all of those things and it's too easy to find 1 fact that isn't true.  I can provide you with plenty examples of "bias", "cherry-picked data", and "opinions stated as facts" you made.

I'll just point out the blatant lies: "They could never put a Mario game at 20€ or 10€ as Sony and Microsoft do with some of their games. Those are prices for virtual console titles"
"
Not letting any of their games to be launched out of their consoles (not even on PC) was a way to tell the consumer that, no matter what, Nintendo games will ever only be played on Nintendo consoles."
"
Thus, Nintendo can manage the availability of games and their prices by region to better squeeze each one of them. And, by doing so, there won’t be global negative reactions towards any of their localized abusive practices. If you’re from a tiny little region, you’re on your own against the powerful Nintendo."
"
Moreover, that makes them free to launch western versions of japanese games one year later the original launch at full retail price. Actually, that makes them free not to launch at all some games in some regions if they think it won’t be as profitable. There is a military maxim that says “divide and conquer”. I find it sad that Nintendo is at war with gamers."
^--- Nintendo doesn't have "abusive practices" here.  You simply don't understand localization and that's why you think this.
"
No one was doing that and Nintendo just felt the need to control third-parties even further, to give them even less space in the market, to profit even more from an already successful business they had created. Nintendo proactively restricted third-parties’ freedom. The other console makers have only reactively adopted the same logic" (Others have already explained to you time and time again why this is false)
"Sony and Microsoft have always attempted to develop powerful consoles using mainstream hardware tech that could please and be accessible to as many 3rd parties as possible, which could aim for protagonism within the console. Actually, Sony and Microsoft enhanced it, providing good software development tools and eventually financing some projects if they were to be exclusives. Their philosophy was: “if we develop the best system for 3rd party developers, it can’t be bad for our 1st party studios”."
"
Again, Nintendo designing a console only for its needs"




(Nintendo is at the moment the only major console maker to use region lock.) <-- Not a lie, but it is worded in a way where it is almost a lie.  Region lock also still occurs with Sony/Microsoft systems, it's just up to the devs and competition HAVE used region lock before.  This is your cherry picking and half-lie.
(Some developers making ports from PS3/X360 to the Wii U told they had to cut back on some features due to the CPU not being powerful enough, which has impacted the game as a whole.) This is a dumb argument IMO.  XBO and PS4's CPU clock speeds are also lower than the 360/PS3's (the devs you're talking about was referring to clock speeds).


This is only SOME of the things.  Pretty much your entire "article" is filled with cherry picking, antagonistic bias, opinions stated as facts and all sorts of other things.