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Ail on 17 February 2014

In the end it's still going to end up as the first franchise killed by the WiiU because I don't see this game selling decently out of Japan...



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

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fatslob-:O on 17 February 2014
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:

They can still pull it off without the eDRAM ... These eshop titles are not texture or shading intensive ... In this sense they would mostly be bounded by the ROPs because the setup, shading, and texture mapping/filtering stages are mostly negligible and or insignificant.

And could you expand on their reasoning on why it would be useful for the CPU to have access to the eDRAM in a significant effect ?

You still need to store your frame in a framebuffer before outputting it.

And what they said was this: "We use the eDRAM in the Wii U for the actual framebuffers, intermediate framebuffer captures, as a fast scratch memory for some CPU intense work and for other GPU memory writes. Using eDRAM properly is a simple way to get extra performance without any other optimizations."

They can do that on the main memory instead. The eDRAM isn't the only one that holds the framebuffer but that also applies to the video memory as well. Hence why graphics cards on PCs don't need eDRAM.

The question is though does usage of eDRAM by the CPU make any noticeable difference ?



curl-6 on 18 February 2014
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:

They can still pull it off without the eDRAM ... These eshop titles are not texture or shading intensive ... In this sense they would mostly be bounded by the ROPs because the setup, shading, and texture mapping/filtering stages are mostly negligible and or insignificant.

And could you expand on their reasoning on why it would be useful for the CPU to have access to the eDRAM in a significant effect ?

You still need to store your frame in a framebuffer before outputting it.

And what they said was this: "We use the eDRAM in the Wii U for the actual framebuffers, intermediate framebuffer captures, as a fast scratch memory for some CPU intense work and for other GPU memory writes. Using eDRAM properly is a simple way to get extra performance without any other optimizations."

They can do that on the main memory instead. The eDRAM isn't the only one that holds the framebuffer but that also applies to the video memory as well. Hence why graphics cards on PCs don't need eDRAM.

The question is though does usage of eDRAM by the CPU make any noticeable difference ?

It's faster and easier to do it in eDRAM though.

And if it didn't make a difference, they wouldn't do it. Shin'en's whole programming background is one of efficiency; getting the most use out of your resources.



fatslob-:O on 18 February 2014
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:

They can still pull it off without the eDRAM ... These eshop titles are not texture or shading intensive ... In this sense they would mostly be bounded by the ROPs because the setup, shading, and texture mapping/filtering stages are mostly negligible and or insignificant.

And could you expand on their reasoning on why it would be useful for the CPU to have access to the eDRAM in a significant effect ?

You still need to store your frame in a framebuffer before outputting it.

And what they said was this: "We use the eDRAM in the Wii U for the actual framebuffers, intermediate framebuffer captures, as a fast scratch memory for some CPU intense work and for other GPU memory writes. Using eDRAM properly is a simple way to get extra performance without any other optimizations."

They can do that on the main memory instead. The eDRAM isn't the only one that holds the framebuffer but that also applies to the video memory as well. Hence why graphics cards on PCs don't need eDRAM.

The question is though does usage of eDRAM by the CPU make any noticeable difference ?

It's faster and easier to do it in eDRAM though.

And if it didn't make a difference, they wouldn't do it. Shin'en's whole programming background is one of efficiency; getting the most use out of your resources.

That doesn't mean that the indie developers would have an uphill battle without the eDRAM though. It would still be just as easy without the eDRAM.

I didn't say that it didn't make a difference ... I was asking if it made at the very least a marginal difference. Single threaded performance is as good as it gets today even with the latest break throughs in caching, prefetching, and branch prediction. So I really can't see how the eDRAM would make alot of difference if much at all.



curl-6 on 18 February 2014
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:

They can still pull it off without the eDRAM ... These eshop titles are not texture or shading intensive ... In this sense they would mostly be bounded by the ROPs because the setup, shading, and texture mapping/filtering stages are mostly negligible and or insignificant.

And could you expand on their reasoning on why it would be useful for the CPU to have access to the eDRAM in a significant effect ?

You still need to store your frame in a framebuffer before outputting it.

And what they said was this: "We use the eDRAM in the Wii U for the actual framebuffers, intermediate framebuffer captures, as a fast scratch memory for some CPU intense work and for other GPU memory writes. Using eDRAM properly is a simple way to get extra performance without any other optimizations."

They can do that on the main memory instead. The eDRAM isn't the only one that holds the framebuffer but that also applies to the video memory as well. Hence why graphics cards on PCs don't need eDRAM.

The question is though does usage of eDRAM by the CPU make any noticeable difference ?

It's faster and easier to do it in eDRAM though.

And if it didn't make a difference, they wouldn't do it. Shin'en's whole programming background is one of efficiency; getting the most use out of your resources.

That doesn't mean that the indie developers would have an uphill battle without the eDRAM though. It would still be just as easy without the eDRAM.

I didn't say that it didn't make a difference ... I was asking if it made at the very least a marginal difference. Single threaded performance is as good as it gets today even with the latest break throughs in caching, prefetching, and branch prediction. So I really can't see how the eDRAM would make alot of difference if much at all.

But you can still fit a 1080p frame into 32MB of eDRAM with plenty of room to spare, while 10MB is just too small unless you tile the hell out of it, which is less efficient.

And you'd have to ask Shin'en: info@shinen.com



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fatslob-:O on 18 February 2014
curl-6 said:

But you can still fit a 1080p frame into 32MB of eDRAM with plenty of room to spare, while 10MB is just too small unless you tile the hell out of it, which is less efficient.

And you'd have to ask Shin'en: info@shinen.com


You don't have to tile the hell out of it. How much harm can 4 tiles do ? It's only slightly less efficient seeing as how it's gonna require a dedicated amount of bandwidth to switch the tiles but that more than makes up for it seeing as how the 8 ROPs comes more in handy for doing some blend operations whereas the WII Us eDRAM has none.

Like I have said before, "it's mostly in vain" because the WII U has a clear lack of amount of ROPs to be able to make use of the full 32mb eDRAM. 



curl-6 on 18 February 2014
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:

But you can still fit a 1080p frame into 32MB of eDRAM with plenty of room to spare, while 10MB is just too small unless you tile the hell out of it, which is less efficient.

And you'd have to ask Shin'en: info@shinen.com


You don't have to tile the hell out of it. How much harm can 4 tiles do ? It's only slightly less efficient seeing as how it's gonna require a dedicated amount of bandwidth to switch the tiles but that more than makes up for it seeing as how the 8 ROPs comes more in handy for doing some blend operations whereas the WII Us eDRAM has none.

Like I have said before, "it's mostly in vain" because the WII U has a clear lack of amount of ROPs to be able to make use of the full 32mb eDRAM. 

The amount of ROPs on Latte hasn't been confirmed.



fatslob-:O on 18 February 2014
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:

But you can still fit a 1080p frame into 32MB of eDRAM with plenty of room to spare, while 10MB is just too small unless you tile the hell out of it, which is less efficient.

And you'd have to ask Shin'en: info@shinen.com


You don't have to tile the hell out of it. How much harm can 4 tiles do ? It's only slightly less efficient seeing as how it's gonna require a dedicated amount of bandwidth to switch the tiles but that more than makes up for it seeing as how the 8 ROPs comes more in handy for doing some blend operations whereas the WII Us eDRAM has none.

Like I have said before, "it's mostly in vain" because the WII U has a clear lack of amount of ROPs to be able to make use of the full 32mb eDRAM. 

The amount of ROPs on Latte hasn't been confirmed.

Might as well just assume that it has 8 ROPs seeing as how alot of the games that aren't shader intensive ain't hitting 1080p such as SM3DW, Pikmin 3, or W101. 

This pretty much rules out that latte has more than 8 ROPs. 



curl-6 on 18 February 2014
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:

But you can still fit a 1080p frame into 32MB of eDRAM with plenty of room to spare, while 10MB is just too small unless you tile the hell out of it, which is less efficient.

And you'd have to ask Shin'en: info@shinen.com


You don't have to tile the hell out of it. How much harm can 4 tiles do ? It's only slightly less efficient seeing as how it's gonna require a dedicated amount of bandwidth to switch the tiles but that more than makes up for it seeing as how the 8 ROPs comes more in handy for doing some blend operations whereas the WII Us eDRAM has none.

Like I have said before, "it's mostly in vain" because the WII U has a clear lack of amount of ROPs to be able to make use of the full 32mb eDRAM. 

The amount of ROPs on Latte hasn't been confirmed.

Might as well just assume that it has 8 ROPs seeing as how alot of the games that aren't shader intensive ain't hitting 1080p such as SM3DW, Pikmin 3, or W101. 

This pretty much rules out that latte has more than 8 ROPs. 

That's more likely a matter of 720p being easier and cheaper than 1080p. You have to invest more to optimise up to 1080p. Hell, even Xbox One seems to be 720p standard and that's a fair bit more powerful than Wii U.



fatslob-:O on 18 February 2014
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:

But you can still fit a 1080p frame into 32MB of eDRAM with plenty of room to spare, while 10MB is just too small unless you tile the hell out of it, which is less efficient.

And you'd have to ask Shin'en: info@shinen.com


You don't have to tile the hell out of it. How much harm can 4 tiles do ? It's only slightly less efficient seeing as how it's gonna require a dedicated amount of bandwidth to switch the tiles but that more than makes up for it seeing as how the 8 ROPs comes more in handy for doing some blend operations whereas the WII Us eDRAM has none.

Like I have said before, "it's mostly in vain" because the WII U has a clear lack of amount of ROPs to be able to make use of the full 32mb eDRAM. 

The amount of ROPs on Latte hasn't been confirmed.

Might as well just assume that it has 8 ROPs seeing as how alot of the games that aren't shader intensive ain't hitting 1080p such as SM3DW, Pikmin 3, or W101. 

This pretty much rules out that latte has more than 8 ROPs. 

That's more likely a matter of 720p being easier and cheaper than 1080p. You have to invest more to optimise up to 1080p. Hell, even Xbox One seems to be 720p standard and that's a fair bit more powerful than Wii U.

It's true that 1080p is more demanding than 720p but we have enough evidence to rule out that the WII U has more than 8 ROPs. X1 titles are even more demanding so that comparison isn't fair seeing as how it has less time to perform blending operations.