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Forums - Politics - Gay marriage in... Utah? Update: on hold for now

ninetailschris said:


Two questions.

Is human rights subjective and if not prove to me there objective. Because other wise your argument is very circular in the sense you create your own terms then proclaim them true because you personally create the rights in your own head. For example, if I said it's disgusting that I can't marry 11 year old would I be right if I just claimed basic human rights?

Second question. Do you honestly feel people scared of homosexuals? The idea is to protect marriage not because we want gays dead or hate gays. Your attacking a straw man or some nazi group here. I know for a fact I don't hate gay people and that I just disagree with it.

An 11 year old is not an adult and can't give consent.  So that argument is irrelevant.

Of course there is fear and hatred of homosexuals.  Less than there used to be, but a lot of people are afraid that somehow if their children are exposed to homosexuals that they will be more likely to become homosexual.  As far as "protecting marraige", that's a joke.  If you don't support same-sex marraige, then don't get married to someone of the same sex.  But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules.  It's absurd.



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ninetailschris said:
curl-6 said:
ninetailschris said:

 Do you honestly feel people scared of homosexuals? The idea is to protect marriage not because we want gays dead or hate gays.

Marriage doesn't need protection. Homosexuality does not threaten it.


I would beg to differ. What you are doing is re-defining marriage and rights to whatever someone personally feels. Why not allow multiple wives and husbands? Why not allow marriage between animals and humans? Why not with children under the age of 13? Why not with anything.

Simple; animals and children aren't capable of informed consent. Adult homosexuals are.

Including a class of consenting adults takes nothing away from the institution.



whatever said:
ninetailschris said:


Two questions.

Is human rights subjective and if not prove to me there objective. Because other wise your argument is very circular in the sense you create your own terms then proclaim them true because you personally create the rights in your own head. For example, if I said it's disgusting that I can't marry 11 year old would I be right if I just claimed basic human rights?

Second question. Do you honestly feel people scared of homosexuals? The idea is to protect marriage not because we want gays dead or hate gays. Your attacking a straw man or some nazi group here. I know for a fact I don't hate gay people and that I just disagree with it.

An 11 year old is not an adult and can't give consent.  So that argument is irrelevant.

Of  there is fear and hatred of homosexuals.  Less than there used to be, but a lot of people are afraid that somehow if their children are exposed to homosexuals that they will be more likely to become homosexual.  As far as "protecting marraige", that's a joke.  If you don't support same-sex marraige, then don't get married to someone of the same sex.  But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules.  It's absurd.


Consent is a subjective term. If you can think to the ability to read or write that objectivly is consent based on medical terms.Some countries marrying  at 12 is perfectly ok. You're arguing from social norm. The only way I can see you argue otherwise is an appeal emotion in which you have prove your feelings are in fact objective, which is logical incoherent.

"Of course there is fear and hatred of homosexuals. "

This has nothing to do with what said as I was saying not everyone hates gays they can seemly disagree. Unless you want prove every single one hate homosexuals.

"As far as "protecting marraige", that's a joke. "

Asserted. You never explained why, besides it doesn't hurt you. If you read my recent post you will see how it actual effects the creditability of rights.  

"  If you don't support same-sex marraige, then don't get married to someone of the same sex.  But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules.  It's absurd."

Don't force your beliefs onto others? Do you realize you are contradicting yourself? If believe killing should be legal if your mad at the person would you say "If you don't support killing people, then don't kill someone. But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules.. It's absurd." That's a subjective opinions for you. In reality we all force morals onto people because if we didn't we would be killing each other and raping children if we pleased. That's how we have laws.Welcome to reality.

Just for let's use your sentence for multiple arguments you may not agree with.

"If you don't support pedophiles , then don't get married to someone who is younger.  But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules. It's absurd."

"If you don't support beastiality , then don't have sex to animals.  But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules. It's  absurd."

"If you don't support racism, then don't get talk to about it.  But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules."

"If you don't support slavery, then don't get slaves. But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules."

"If you don't support wars, then don't get involved wars. But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules."

Now there are two ways I expect you to respond and hope you don't believe it will be logically incoherent.

1. It's not the because we think x is wrong therefor it is. 

2. You're wrong because your (insert insult about me personally and avoid the argument or my points)

What want from you is simple. Tell why your personal opinions will tell you are right over without using an appeal to emotion. Don't tell me that it makes you feel sad if x happens because honestly that is irrelevant and counter-factual. If I said I felt sad that abortion was wrong it doesn't make it right. So, please explain logically why your personal opinions are anymore true than the opposite claim without appeal to emotions. I could go into a deeper point but I'm going pretty easy on.



"Excuse me sir, I see you have a weapon. Why don't you put it down and let's settle this like gentlemen"  ~ max

Ya know what all of this babble is starting to remind me of? That scene in Sin City where the fucked up priest is about to get killed by Marv and he is spinning the tale of how Froto eating those chicks is beautiful and so on. Then the man of the cloth asks Marv, what the hell do you know? Marv's response was perfect, " I know it's pretty damn weird to eat people".
It's simple really, treat people right, gay, black, fat, poor, whatever the fuck. Spinning how it's wrong for gays to marry? I know it's pretty damn weird to eat people.



I LOVE paying for Xbox Live! I also love that my love for it pisses off so many people.



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ninetailschris said:

Second question. Do you honestly feel people scared of homosexuals? The idea is to protect marriage not because we want gays dead or hate gays. Your attacking a straw man or some nazi group here. I know for a fact I don't hate gay people and that I just disagree with it.

I know many people disagree with it but what an arrogant thing it is to say.  It's like me saying to an asian man I disagree wih him being asian lol

I get that when you are not gay you may believe it is a choice, that we decide one day to be attracted to the same sex.  I personally would have never made that choice.  The only choice I made was to accept and live with it instead of being unhappy my whole life.

By the way, nice avatar ;)



ninetailschris said:


Consent is a subjective term. If you can think to the ability to read or write that objectivly is consent based on medical terms.Some countries marrying  at 12 is perfectly ok. You're arguing from social norm. The only way I can see you argue otherwise is an appeal emotion in which you have prove your feelings are in fact objective, which is logical incoherent.

"Of course there is fear and hatred of homosexuals. "

This has nothing to do with what said as I was saying not everyone hates gays they can seemly disagree. Unless you want prove every single one hate homosexuals.

"As far as "protecting marraige", that's a joke. "

Asserted. You never explained why, besides it doesn't hurt you. If you read my recent post you will see how it actual effects the creditability of rights.  

"  If you don't support same-sex marraige, then don't get married to someone of the same sex.  But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules.  It's absurd."

Don't force your beliefs onto others? Do you realize you are contradicting yourself? If believe killing should be legal if your mad at the person would you say "If you don't support killing people, then don't kill someone. But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules.. It's absurd." That's a subjective opinions for you. In reality we all force morals onto people because if we didn't we would be killing each other and raping children if we pleased. That's how we have laws.Welcome to reality.

Just for let's use your sentence for multiple arguments you may not agree with.

"If you don't support pedophiles , then don't get married to someone who is younger.  But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules. It's absurd."

"If you don't support beastiality , then don't have sex to animals.  But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules. It's  absurd."

"If you don't support racism, then don't get talk to about it.  But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules."

"If you don't support slavery, then don't get slaves. But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules."

"If you don't support wars, then don't get involved wars. But don't force others that believe differently to live by your rules."

Now there are two ways I expect you to respond and hope you don't believe it will be logically incoherent.

1. It's not the because we think x is wrong therefor it is. 

2. You're wrong because your (insert insult about me personally and avoid the argument or my points)

What want from you is simple. Tell why your personal opinions will tell you are right over without using an appeal to emotion. Don't tell me that it makes you feel sad if x happens because honestly that is irrelevant and counter-factual. If I said I felt sad that abortion was wrong it doesn't make it right. So, please explain logically why your personal opinions are anymore true than the opposite claim without appeal to emotions. I could go into a deeper point but I'm going pretty easy on.

The ability to read is consent?  What are you talking about?  As for the age of consent, that has certainly been studied scientifically and while it will vary based on the individual, I'd like you to find anyone that would agree that 11 is a valid age of consent.

I am absolutely not contradicting myself.  I am not forcing my belief on you at all.  You can continue to believe that gay marraige is wrong.  I feel that religion is harmful, but I'm not about to try to ban it.

As for the remainder of your points, they differ from gay marraige in that 2 consenting adults getting married does not affect anyone else outside of those 2 parties in any way.  In each of your scenarios, that is not the case and so consent is absent in regards to the other party:

Killing: lack of consent from the one being killed.
Pedophilia: lack of consent of a child.
Bestiality: lack of consent of an animal.
Slavery: lack of consent of the slave.
War: impact on innocent civilians. collateral damage.  impacts on far more individuals than just those that decide to go to war.

So all of your scenarios are not even remotely the same as the issue at hand.

So why don't you tell me how 2 consenting adults, that you don't even know, getting married has any negative impact on you whatsoever.

The reason we are seeing rapid acceptance of gay marraige is because more people are being exposed to the fact that gays are not "perverted child molesters" that are out to get their children.  They are humans that deserve the same rights as anyone else. This will only continue to accelerate.  Welcome to reality.



Lyrikalstylez said:
I don't care......I'm not against gays nor for it but it seems this subject keeps getting literally shoved down our throats all the time in the media, plus the fact that you can't express your real feelings on this subject without getting called a homophobe! Just take a look at that duck dynasty guy, where's our freedom of speech?


There is freedom of speech in the US!  He said what he had to say and didn't break any law, but there is also consequences: freedom of speech from his employer

In Canada, he would have been in trouble for it though, because hate speech is illegal.  



Dogi said:


Holy shit dude, from 2:30 to the end,I laughed my ass off.



I LOVE paying for Xbox Live! I also love that my love for it pisses off so many people.

Parts of the law banning polygamy also are being overturned now.