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Forums - General Discussion - Should probability invalidate responsibility?

 

Should probability invalidate accountability?

Yes 8 23.53%
 
No 26 76.47%
 
Total:34

If he knew one was rotten and took the chance than the man should be sewed. He man conscience decision to play with someone life knowing that the customer fully trust the baker. Therefor, the baker should pay for his crime.



"Excuse me sir, I see you have a weapon. Why don't you put it down and let's settle this like gentlemen"  ~ max

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SvennoJ said:
DarthVolod said:
 

I would disagree ... the very presence of a condom would suggest that pregnancy was not the intended goal of the sexual encounter. It would be obvious to anyone that in such a situation the pregnancy was an accident.

An abortion should be conducted at the discretion of the woman. It is her body, and the ultimate decision to abort should be in her hands in the same way that the decision to undergo any medical procedure should be up to the individual (assuming they are competent to make such decisions).

The man, however, should not be legally required to care for the child. He can choose to if he wishes, but no legal obligation should exist. After all, it is the woman's decision to have a child, and it should be the man's decision to either support the child or to not support it.

In matters of custody, it would depend on which parent is assuming the role of the child's guardian. Either they both will, one parent will, or neither parent will support the child.

This seems like the most logical/fair approach to this issue. Both parties would have to consent to raising the child as opposed to the double standard we currently have where women hold all the power. Unfortunately, the current law is heavily slanted in favor of women:

A woman can:

1. Have the child and raise it with the father

2. Have the child and collect child support from the father if he decides not to stay with the mother and child

3. Have the full support of family courts to take full custody of the child and keep him/her from the father at any moment she pleases to (even if the father sticks around)

4. Have an abortion at virtually any moment and end the pregnancy; washing her hands of the whole situation

5. Offer the child for adoption; also washing her hands of the whole thing

 

A man can:

1. Watch helplessly as the mom chooses one of the options listed above.

 

Speaking as a man, I would gladly take the options available to women. Options = power, and a lack of choices = powerlessness.

 

As long as consentual sex was involved both partners are responsible for the outcome, whether pregnancy was intented or not.

I agree that the women should have the final say when abortion comes up. I worded it wrong, I didn't mean the man had the option to force the women to carry the child to labour. But if she chooses not to, the man is still the legal father with full responsibility, unless both parties decide that he gives up custody.

I guess you haven't seen your wife go through a difficult pregnancy and trying to recover from a botched C-section if you say you like the options available to women. It's fine they have all the power when it comes to child birth.

The problem still comes to down to whether or not a person should be forced to incur a financial responsibility for a child. In reality, it will always be the man paying the child support as contrasted to women who are almost never expected to pay even in the rare case that they do not receive custody. It is a double standard, and the best way to eliminate it would be to end child support as a practice. A man or woman has no financial burden to raise a child. Both should be allowed to offer a child for adoption or perform an abortion (in the case of both parents not wanting to raise a child), or to avoid any financial responsibility of raising a child if they do not wish to raise that child. Becoming a parent and being a parent should be a 100% voluntary action ... not something forced upon people by the state.

You are right, I have not seen my wife suffer through a difficult pregnancy, but I have seen my best friend psychologically destroyed by a burden to raise a child that he never wanted. Unfortunately, the law really doesn't care about him, the mother holds all the power to bring the pregnancy to term, end it, or whatever she wants to do basically. All he can do is shut up and take it.

I can't imagine what it would be like to experience a difficult pregnancy, but I also cannot imagine the pain/fear/anger my friend went through as he was stripped of his freedom to choose the course of his life. If given the choice, I can promise you that he would gladly suffer through the physical pain of child birth in order to rid himself of the incredible burden that has been placed on him against his will.



DarthVolod said:

The problem still comes to down to whether or not a person should be forced to incur a financial responsibility for a child. In reality, it will always be the man paying the child support as contrasted to women who are almost never expected to pay even in the rare case that they do not receive custody. It is a double standard, and the best way to eliminate it would be to end child support as a practice. A man or woman has no financial burden to raise a child. Both should be allowed to offer a child for adoption or perform an abortion (in the case of both parents not wanting to raise a child), or to avoid any financial responsibility of raising a child if they do not wish to raise that child. Becoming a parent and being a parent should be a 100% voluntary action ... not something forced upon people by the state.

You are right, I have not seen my wife suffer through a difficult pregnancy, but I have seen my best friend psychologically destroyed by a burden to raise a child that he never wanted. Unfortunately, the law really doesn't care about him, the mother holds all the power to bring the pregnancy to term, end it, or whatever she wants to do basically. All he can do is shut up and take it.

I can't imagine what it would be like to experience a difficult pregnancy, but I also cannot imagine the pain/fear/anger my friend went through as he was stripped of his freedom to choose the course of his life. If given the choice, I can promise you that he would gladly suffer through the physical pain of child birth in order to rid himself of the incredible burden that has been placed on him against his will.

 

Did he have sex against his will? He can try to sue his parents for not explaining the risks involved in having sex. If you feel you're old enough to take the risk, then you're old enough to take responsibility. The state certainly didn't force him to have sex.

Pleading ignorance or non intention doesn't work. How about he thinks about the child that needs a father. That's the risk you take when you have sex, your life will change completely and is no longer just your own.

Getting off from being a parent with just a bit of child support is still too easy a way out imo.

Anyway I believe you that the system is biased. If the father has custody then the mother has to pay child support as well.



SvennoJ said:
DarthVolod said:
 

The problem still comes to down to whether or not a person should be forced to incur a financial responsibility for a child. In reality, it will always be the man paying the child support as contrasted to women who are almost never expected to pay even in the rare case that they do not receive custody. It is a double standard, and the best way to eliminate it would be to end child support as a practice. A man or woman has no financial burden to raise a child. Both should be allowed to offer a child for adoption or perform an abortion (in the case of both parents not wanting to raise a child), or to avoid any financial responsibility of raising a child if they do not wish to raise that child. Becoming a parent and being a parent should be a 100% voluntary action ... not something forced upon people by the state.

You are right, I have not seen my wife suffer through a difficult pregnancy, but I have seen my best friend psychologically destroyed by a burden to raise a child that he never wanted. Unfortunately, the law really doesn't care about him, the mother holds all the power to bring the pregnancy to term, end it, or whatever she wants to do basically. All he can do is shut up and take it.

I can't imagine what it would be like to experience a difficult pregnancy, but I also cannot imagine the pain/fear/anger my friend went through as he was stripped of his freedom to choose the course of his life. If given the choice, I can promise you that he would gladly suffer through the physical pain of child birth in order to rid himself of the incredible burden that has been placed on him against his will.

 

Did he have sex against his will? He can try to sue his parents for not explaining the risks involved in having sex. If you feel you're old enough to take the risk, then you're old enough to take responsibility. The state certainly didn't force him to have sex.

Pleading ignorance or non intention doesn't work. How about he thinks about the child that needs a father. That's the risk you take when you have sex, your life will change completely and is no longer just your own.

Getting off from being a parent with just a bit of child support is still too easy a way out imo.

Anyway I believe you that the system is biased. If the father has custody then the mother has to pay child support as well.


To put it bluntly, his parents (or more like "parent") were awful, and they had no business raising a child. The child that "needs a father" would be better off with parents that actually want children ... not people who are strong armed by a female centric legal system into fatherhood at gunpoint.

Child support is not an "easy way out." His wages will be garnished for the next eighteen years (thank god he didn't marry her otherwise he would have alimony on top of that). Failure to pay can lead to prison terms ... anything that will likely lead to prison time is not getting off easy in my opinion.

Even if we assume the best case scenario (he manages to pay child support while still maintaining a decent life) he will have this huge burden going forward that he will not emerge from until he is in his forties.

It is a sad state of affairs that this is what passes for justice and equal treatment under the law. Reverse the genders of the situation and she would have all the options I highlighted at her disposal.



DarthVolod said:

To put it bluntly, his parents (or more like "parent") were awful, and they had no business raising a child. The child that "needs a father" would be better off with parents that actually want children ... not people who are strong armed by a female centric legal system into fatherhood at gunpoint.

Child support is not an "easy way out." His wages will be garnished for the next eighteen years (thank god he didn't marry her otherwise he would have alimony on top of that). Failure to pay can lead to prison terms ... anything that will likely lead to prison time is not getting off easy in my opinion.

Even if we assume the best case scenario (he manages to pay child support while still maintaining a decent life) he will have this huge burden going forward that he will not emerge from until he is in his forties.

It is a sad state of affairs that this is what passes for justice and equal treatment under the law. Reverse the genders of the situation and she would have all the options I highlighted at her disposal.

Now is a good opportunity step up, break the cycle and be a good father for his child.
Sure, sometimes a child can be better off with a surrogate parent but the biological parent is still the better option. It's cruel to put the child through years of self doubt trying to figure out why his father thought he was too much of a burden to care for him.

It happened, it can't be undone, he is resposible, should the child be punished for it?

If the mother doesn't want to be a mother then the father has the option to take custody of the child and get the mother to pay child support. It all takes a lot more time with the current system then the other way around, yet he still has the options. Apart from abortion ofcourse. Equal treatment doesn't work in this case where one party grows a human life inside them.



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SvennoJ said:

Now is a good opportunity step up, break the cycle and be a good father for his child.
Sure, sometimes a child can be better off with a surrogate parent but the biological parent is still the better option. It's cruel to put the child through years of self doubt trying to figure out why his father thought he was too much of a burden to care for him.

It happened, it can't be undone, he is resposible, should the child be punished for it?

If the mother doesn't want to be a mother then the father has the option to take custody of the child and get the mother to pay child support. It all takes a lot more time with the current system then the other way around, yet he still has the options. Apart from abortion ofcourse. Equal treatment doesn't work in this case where one party grows a human life inside them.

What about his feelings? It seems that you are suggesting that the only person of concern here is the child. What about the life that he wanted to live? I have encouraged him to find any way he can to escape child support and to escape this transparent attempt to manipulate and control him that this toxic woman is conducting. Why should he sacrifice his life and his happiness just so a woman (who has no respect for him and his feelings as indicated by this event) can raise a child?

Yes, I have the deepest sympathies for the child, and it was not his fault that he was born into this situation, but my friend wanted no part of this. It was the mother, and the mother alone that held all the cards, and she decided to have the child; the father's choice be damned. If anyone is complicit in the suffering of the child it is her, the father's choice was well established from the start.

He is responsible? He did not want the child, but that doesn't matter to anyone apparently. The only person with a choice here is the mother. She has all of the power in this shakedown, and the state is her muscle.

Despite her abhorrent behavior, if she wanted to give up custody I would argue on her behalf that she should not have to pay child support either. Neither sex should be required to subsidize another human life against their will.



DarthVolod said:
SvennoJ said:
 

Now is a good opportunity step up, break the cycle and be a good father for his child.
Sure, sometimes a child can be better off with a surrogate parent but the biological parent is still the better option. It's cruel to put the child through years of self doubt trying to figure out why his father thought he was too much of a burden to care for him.

It happened, it can't be undone, he is resposible, should the child be punished for it?

If the mother doesn't want to be a mother then the father has the option to take custody of the child and get the mother to pay child support. It all takes a lot more time with the current system then the other way around, yet he still has the options. Apart from abortion ofcourse. Equal treatment doesn't work in this case where one party grows a human life inside them.

What about his feelings? It seems that you are suggesting that the only person of concern here is the child. What about the life that he wanted to live? I have encouraged him to find any way he can to escape child support and to escape this transparent attempt to manipulate and control him that this toxic woman is conducting. Why should he sacrifice his life and his happiness just so a woman (who has no respect for him and his feelings as indicated by this event) can raise a child?

Yes, I have the deepest sympathies for the child, and it was not his fault that he was born into this situation, but my friend wanted no part of this. It was the mother, and the mother alone that held all the cards, and she decided to have the child; the father's choice be damned. If anyone is complicit in the suffering of the child it is her, the father's choice was well established from the start.

He is responsible? He did not want the child, but that doesn't matter to anyone apparently. The only person with a choice here is the mother. She has all of the power in this shakedown, and the state is her muscle.

Despite her abhorrent behavior, if she wanted to give up custody I would argue on her behalf that she should not have to pay child support either. Neither sex should be required to subsidize another human life against their will.

Did she sabotage the condom, did she rape him? I assume he was a consenting adult in the act, so he needs to take full responsibilities for the consequences. You can't ask someone to change their moral fiber or biological nature just to suit his feelings.
That's life, you can't always get what you want. Sometimes doors close, sometimes new ones open. Best to make the most of the hand you're dealt. Change is scary yet he might grow to like being a dad.

I've seen what happens to single mothers where the father does everything to dodge child support. It's not pretty and the only ones that benefit are lawyers.

If anyone is complicit in the suffering of the child it is her, the father's choice was well established from the start.
That is the most absurb reverse logic I've heard. Wearing a condom is not a EULA absolving him of any consequences. I assume it wasn't her choice either at the time. And when it comes to abortion, that's not something anyone can decide beforehand. I'm not against abortion, but I certainly won't ask anyone to kill their own child, which is the way a lot of people feel about it.

His only way out is to do a paternity test and hope it's not his.



DarthVolod said:

What about his feelings? It seems that you are suggesting that the only person of concern here is the child. What about the life that he wanted to live? I have encouraged him to find any way he can to escape child support and to escape this transparent attempt to manipulate and control him that this toxic woman is conducting. Why should he sacrifice his life and his happiness just so a woman (who has no respect for him and his feelings as indicated by this event) can raise a child?

Yes, I have the deepest sympathies for the child, and it was not his fault that he was born into this situation, but my friend wanted no part of this. It was the mother, and the mother alone that held all the cards, and she decided to have the child; the father's choice be damned. If anyone is complicit in the suffering of the child it is her, the father's choice was well established from the start.

He is responsible? He did not want the child, but that doesn't matter to anyone apparently. The only person with a choice here is the mother. She has all of the power in this shakedown, and the state is her muscle.

Despite her abhorrent behavior, if she wanted to give up custody I would argue on her behalf that she should not have to pay child support either. Neither sex should be required to subsidize another human life against their will.

The problem with this is the fact that the father does have a choice. He chooses to have sex with the knowledge that his choice could lead to pregnancy, which could subsequently lead to a child being born. He is fully aware of the circumstances going in. So it is not against his will, and the consequences certainly are not unfair. If he still decides to have sex - with this knowledge - then he must also accept any consequences resulting from his decision, whether he likes it or not.

It does not matter what the man wants or feels. It only matters what he does. Responsibility is determined based on actions, not the mentality of the person who performs the action; for example, a person is not forgiven for involuntary manslaughter just because he "didn't really want to kill the victim". If he didn't want to be a father, then he should not have engaged in sex. I know this seems impractical since sex is such an intrinsic part of human instinct, but human instinct does not invalidate accountability. The same rules of responsibility still apply, regardless of the fact that he was really excited that one night. There’s no excuse.

It seems like you're trying to use the woman's abundance of options to somehow prove that the man has no options or no choice. But this is flawed: even though the woman had an extended period of time to make a decision after conception, the man still makes an informed decision during conception, and should therefore be responsible for the consequences resulting from his decision. The woman’s choices do not diminish the significance of the man’s decision, nor the implications that follow from his decision.



Aielyn said:

I see that some have observed that this is an analogy to sex and condoms. There are a few key differences.

1. The man cannot know that he has an imperfect condom - that is, it's not that he knows that there's one weak condom in his batch of 100, only that there's a 1% chance that the condom he has might break. Assuming the woman (or gay partner) is also aware of this, it fails to be an analogy both in terms of the man's knowledge and the other person's knowledge.

2. There is no transaction taking place - that is, the man is not making a financial gain or otherwise gaining anything that is being traded for something knowingly possibly-defective.

3. The man did not manufacture the condom as the baker manufactured the cake (presumably).

This alters the situation enough that the morality and the responsibility should be different. In my view, if both sexual partners know that the condom could break, and both choose to go ahead with the sexual activity, then the responsibility should be exactly the same as if both choose to have sexual activity without a condom.

Note that an exact situation mirroring the Baker analogy would be medicinal drugs... if the laws didn't state that warnings must be put on them indicating possible side-effects, etc, but it was known that serious illness occurs in 1% of patients who use the drug, then selling the drug without such a warning would be a breach of responsibility akin to the Baker possibly selling an infected cake. This is why laws are in place requiring those warnings.

 

1. It is the same thing. Having sex (or selling the cake), he knows there is a 1% chance of his condom failing (or selling a bad cake) since no condom is guaranteed to be perfect; therefore, he knows that there is a 1% that there will be undesired consequences (same for the baker). If he still chooses to have sex (sell the cake), then he should still be responsible for the very unlikely consequences. That was my point. I don't think the knowledge of the partner/customer matters as it relates to the responsibility of the male/baker. 

2. I don't see what the existence or lack of a transaction this has to do with the baker/male being responsible for the consequences of their actions.

3. Assume the baker did not manufacturer the cake, so it can be equivalent. The baker would still be responsible for whatever happens. So it doesn’t really matter if the male/baker manufactured the condom/cake. 

I don't see why the responsibility is different.

In the end, none of the above really matters since it looks like you agree with me. You state "if both sexual partners know that the condom could break, and both choose to go ahead with the sexual activity, then the responsibility should be exactly the same as if both chose to have sexual activity without a condom." However, everyone knows (or should know) that a condom could break; none are perfect. So I assume you must agree with the fact responsibility from protected sex (under any sex) is the same as the responsibility from unprotected sex. This was my point.



The baker is 100% at fault. He sold goods to a customer knowing their was a chance they could come to some harm.



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