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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Xbox One TV integration suffers noticeable judder in UK

Xenostar said:
selnor1983 said:
ganoncrotch said:
selnor1983 said:
ganoncrotch said:
kowenicki said:
selnor1983 said:
I haven't actually noticed anything. Ive watched probably 6-8 hours of TV through the Xbox One since its release. I have Sky HD Box. My wife and kids have probably watched even more than me. Both recorded programs and Live F1.

If its there I actually haven't noticed. So this is no deal to me whatsoever.

Hope for those who do have a small launch issue will get a fix soon.

Gotta love those launches eh?

At least this is no RROD. LOL.

Cheers Microsoft for an awesome launch. I love to game again. Yay.

its not a console specific issue, its an issue for everyone.

I hooked it up to try it and was watching a football match and notice it.  Watching non sport or not fast moving stuff I couldnt really tell, but it is def there.

But as I said, until there is a proper tie-in with Sky or someone else I dont see the point of the TV app anyway.


does the sky tv app still exist on the actually system itself? have that signed in with a mates sky account and gave a cool handful of channels streaming to the 360 really nicely, very good resolution altering to handle dodgy wifi at times.

No it doesnt yet. I believe its coming though.

But why cant anyone explain to me why my TV has been fine through my Xbox One since Friday? Im in the UK and use a Sky + HD box. I have no jerking. And have watched a really wide variety of things. Even watching the most fast moving picture possible in onboard F1 all weekend.


My guess if you've seen everything perfectly fine is that you have found some video setting in the x1 to output at 50hz or your hdtv is an oddone which is exactly in sync with the 50hz coming from your skybox, so the fact that the x1 is generating some extra frames here and there which shouldn't be shown but they are not being displayed on your screen.

I seem to remeber the Skybox may have a 60hz output option. I thought it was possible to buy TVs in the UK with no 50hx option now?

Im finishing work now will try and film and check settings when I get home.

IT doesnt have 60hz output, never has. 

Im sure it could be black and white and you would tell us its flawless perfection. 

Or to be fair some high end TVs have a smoothing option, but these generally make things look even stranger. 

Im gonna try and record it on my HD camera. I'll try and upload. I have F1 saved so can show fast moving images. :)



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Easy .. a small patch will fix this problem.



Lafiel said:
SvennoJ said:
kitler53 said:
wtf? why would the UK pick 50 hz for broadcasting?

Because TV was always in 50hz in Europe (used to be tied to 50hz AC power at the start) and thus all TV programs have always been in 50hz. Why would they convert all their existing content for such a little upgrade. Imo they should have switched to 100hz broadcasting for HDTV, compatible with 50hz and much better then your tv inserting frames.

You could also ask the question why would the US stick to 60hz for broadcasting, majority is 50hz.

but they don't want to upgrade to 100Hz or even 60Hz .. maybe because that could mean you'd need more bandwith per channel

the electricity frequency should have no effect on that anymore anyway, as all TVs released in the last .. ~30 years have a frequency-voltage transformer built in

True, but 90% of tv is reruns, all made or already converted to 50hz and all the infrastructure would need to be adjusted and/or replaced.
It would also be more convenient if the whole world uses 60hz 220v. Faster cycle and higher voltage has less energy loss in transport after all, or how about we all drive on the same side of the road. It's simply too much work, and nobody wants to be the one that has to change.
 
Actually 50hz was better for watching movies until 1080p24 came along. Movies in Europe were simply sped up to 25fps and it allowed 576 lines of resolution instead of 480. The 4% faster sound wasn't noticeable and you get a perfectly smooth picture unlike the 3:2 pulldown filter used for 60hz conversion. Check the runtime differences between PAL and NTSC DVDs, PAL ones are all 4% shorter.

Anyway many people don't notice judder, or upscaled versus native resolutions, or screen tearing. For people that do, they probably don't like an extra signal processing step in the chain anyway, I don't. Native resolution, native framerate for me please.



SvennoJ said:
Lafiel said:
SvennoJ said:
kitler53 said:
wtf? why would the UK pick 50 hz for broadcasting?

Because TV was always in 50hz in Europe (used to be tied to 50hz AC power at the start) and thus all TV programs have always been in 50hz. Why would they convert all their existing content for such a little upgrade. Imo they should have switched to 100hz broadcasting for HDTV, compatible with 50hz and much better then your tv inserting frames.

You could also ask the question why would the US stick to 60hz for broadcasting, majority is 50hz.

but they don't want to upgrade to 100Hz or even 60Hz .. maybe because that could mean you'd need more bandwith per channel

the electricity frequency should have no effect on that anymore anyway, as all TVs released in the last .. ~30 years have a frequency-voltage transformer built in

True, but 90% of tv is reruns, all made or already converted to 50hz and all the infrastructure would need to be adjusted and/or replaced.
It would also be more convenient if the whole world uses 60hz 220v. Faster cycle and higher voltage has less energy loss in transport after all, or how about we all drive on the same side of the road. It's simply too much work, and nobody wants to be the one that has to change.
 
Actually 50hz was better for watching movies until 1080p24 came along. Movies in Europe were simply sped up to 25fps and it allowed 576 lines of resolution instead of 480. The 4% faster sound wasn't noticeable and you get a perfectly smooth picture unlike the 3:2 pulldown filter used for 60hz conversion. Check the runtime differences between PAL and NTSC DVDs, PAL ones are all 4% shorter.

Anyway many people don't notice judder, or upscaled versus native resolutions, or screen tearing. For people that do, they probably don't like an extra signal processing step in the chain anyway, I don't. Native resolution, native framerate for me please.

OMG is this true? I've always wondered why in some films, I hear the sound of the next scene (like a phone ringing or footsteps for example) just before the next scene comes on in the picture.  Always assumed it was a common editing thing, since I see it all the time. Shit! I swear, though, that I'm the only one who's ever noticed. I think I have really sensitive eyes/ears.

Mindblown, although it kind of makes sense now I think about it.



My Blog, Please Have A Read:

http://Proseandconsoles.blogspot.com

Wiped said:
SvennoJ said:
 

True, but 90% of tv is reruns, all made or already converted to 50hz and all the infrastructure would need to be adjusted and/or replaced.
It would also be more convenient if the whole world uses 60hz 220v. Faster cycle and higher voltage has less energy loss in transport after all, or how about we all drive on the same side of the road. It's simply too much work, and nobody wants to be the one that has to change.
 
Actually 50hz was better for watching movies until 1080p24 came along. Movies in Europe were simply sped up to 25fps and it allowed 576 lines of resolution instead of 480. The 4% faster sound wasn't noticeable and you get a perfectly smooth picture unlike the 3:2 pulldown filter used for 60hz conversion. Check the runtime differences between PAL and NTSC DVDs, PAL ones are all 4% shorter.

Anyway many people don't notice judder, or upscaled versus native resolutions, or screen tearing. For people that do, they probably don't like an extra signal processing step in the chain anyway, I don't. Native resolution, native framerate for me please.

OMG is this true? I've always wondered why in some films, I hear the sound of the next scene (like a phone ringing or footsteps for example) just before the next scene comes on in the picture.  Always assumed it was a common editing thing, since I see it all the time. Shit! I swear, though, that I'm the only one who's ever noticed. I think I have really sensitive eyes/ears.

Mindblown, although it kind of makes sense now I think about it.

Nah, starting the sound of the next scene before the video is indeed a common editting technique to create less jarring transitions. I use it in my own videos as well, it's much nicer then a straight cut. If you play a PAL and NTSC DVD next to eachother, the PAL one will keep getting ahead and if you listen really carefully the pitch of sounds is slightly higher. Some PAL DVDs have audio pitch correction (rare) but that's difficult to do right and can easily end up worse then keeping the higher pitch. PAL LOTR DVD special edition for example has some audio glitches because of the pitch correction.

Anyway the sound is still synchronized otherwise. You would immediately notice it when people speak. In early dvds and players it often looked like actors were dubbed because the sound was slightly too early or too late. Thanks to the magic of HDMI (since version 1.2) your tv informs your amp about the correct audio delay to apply to synchronize the sound with the processed picture. Much better then when I got my first HD cable box with component video out and a separate digital audio out to amp. It was like watching dubbed foreign language programming all the time.

What's more mindblowing is the reason behind 50hz and 60hz power. Blame the metric system for this continuing mess.
http://electrical-science.blogspot.ca/2009/12/history-of-power-frequency.html

The German company AEG (descended from a company founded by Edison in Germany) built the first German generating facility to run at 50 Hz, allegedly because 60 was not a preferred number. AEG's choice of 50 Hz is thought by some to relate to a more "metric-friendly" number than 60. At the time, AEG had a virtual monopoly and their standard spread to the rest of Europe.

Meanwhile in NA

Westinghouse Electric decided to standardize on a lower frequency to permit operation of both electric lighting and induction motors on the same generating system. Although 50 Hz was suitable for both, in 1890 Westinghouse considered that existing arc-lighting equipment operated slightly better on 60 Hz, and so that frequency was chosen.

I guess we're lucky to only have 2 frequency standards, it used to be as low as 16 2/3hz all the way up to 133hz. There are still some plants operating at the original 25hz power frequency from the Niagara Falls hydro electric plant.



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SvennoJ said:
Wiped said:
SvennoJ said:
 

True, but 90% of tv is reruns, all made or already converted to 50hz and all the infrastructure would need to be adjusted and/or replaced.
It would also be more convenient if the whole world uses 60hz 220v. Faster cycle and higher voltage has less energy loss in transport after all, or how about we all drive on the same side of the road. It's simply too much work, and nobody wants to be the one that has to change.
 
Actually 50hz was better for watching movies until 1080p24 came along. Movies in Europe were simply sped up to 25fps and it allowed 576 lines of resolution instead of 480. The 4% faster sound wasn't noticeable and you get a perfectly smooth picture unlike the 3:2 pulldown filter used for 60hz conversion. Check the runtime differences between PAL and NTSC DVDs, PAL ones are all 4% shorter.

Anyway many people don't notice judder, or upscaled versus native resolutions, or screen tearing. For people that do, they probably don't like an extra signal processing step in the chain anyway, I don't. Native resolution, native framerate for me please.

OMG is this true? I've always wondered why in some films, I hear the sound of the next scene (like a phone ringing or footsteps for example) just before the next scene comes on in the picture.  Always assumed it was a common editing thing, since I see it all the time. Shit! I swear, though, that I'm the only one who's ever noticed. I think I have really sensitive eyes/ears.

Mindblown, although it kind of makes sense now I think about it.

Nah, starting the sound of the next scene before the video is indeed a common editting technique to create less jarring transitions. I use it in my own videos as well, it's much nicer then a straight cut. If you play a PAL and NTSC DVD next to eachother, the PAL one will keep getting ahead and if you listen really carefully the pitch of sounds is slightly higher. Some PAL DVDs have audio pitch correction (rare) but that's difficult to do right and can easily end up worse then keeping the higher pitch. PAL LOTR DVD special edition for example has some audio glitches because of the pitch correction.

Anyway the sound is still synchronized otherwise. You would immediately notice it when people speak. In early dvds and players it often looked like actors were dubbed because the sound was slightly too early or too late. Thanks to the magic of HDMI (since version 1.2) your tv informs your amp about the correct audio delay to apply to synchronize the sound with the processed picture. Much better then when I got my first HD cable box with component video out and a separate digital audio out to amp. It was like watching dubbed foreign language programming all the time.

What's more mindblowing is the reason behind 50hz and 60hz power. Blame the metric system for this continuing mess.
http://electrical-science.blogspot.ca/2009/12/history-of-power-frequency.html

The German company AEG (descended from a company founded by Edison in Germany) built the first German generating facility to run at 50 Hz, allegedly because 60 was not a preferred number. AEG's choice of 50 Hz is thought by some to relate to a more "metric-friendly" number than 60. At the time, AEG had a virtual monopoly and their standard spread to the rest of Europe.

Meanwhile in NA

Westinghouse Electric decided to standardize on a lower frequency to permit operation of both electric lighting and induction motors on the same generating system. Although 50 Hz was suitable for both, in 1890 Westinghouse considered that existing arc-lighting equipment operated slightly better on 60 Hz, and so that frequency was chosen.

I guess we're lucky to only have 2 frequency standards, it used to be as low as 16 2/3hz all the way up to 133hz. There are still some plants operating at the original 25hz power frequency from the Niagara Falls hydro electric plant.


Wow, okay. I actually found all that really interesting I have to say, thanks for that!



My Blog, Please Have A Read:

http://Proseandconsoles.blogspot.com

selnor1983 said:
Xenostar said:
selnor1983 said:

I seem to remeber the Skybox may have a 60hz output option. I thought it was possible to buy TVs in the UK with no 50hx option now?

Im finishing work now will try and film and check settings when I get home.

IT doesnt have 60hz output, never has. 

Im sure it could be black and white and you would tell us its flawless perfection. 

Or to be fair some high end TVs have a smoothing option, but these generally make things look even stranger. 

Im gonna try and record it on my HD camera. I'll try and upload. I have F1 saved so can show fast moving images. :)


Did you manage to record it yet? I would be interested in knowing if it is an issue for all TV or just when it is snapped with a game.



PSN: Osc89

NNID: Oscar89

Osc89 said:
selnor1983 said:
Xenostar said:
selnor1983 said:

I seem to remeber the Skybox may have a 60hz output option. I thought it was possible to buy TVs in the UK with no 50hx option now?

Im finishing work now will try and film and check settings when I get home.

IT doesnt have 60hz output, never has. 

Im sure it could be black and white and you would tell us its flawless perfection. 

Or to be fair some high end TVs have a smoothing option, but these generally make things look even stranger. 

Im gonna try and record it on my HD camera. I'll try and upload. I have F1 saved so can show fast moving images. :)


Did you manage to record it yet? I would be interested in knowing if it is an issue for all TV or just when it is snapped with a game.


Yes. Youtube blocked it though because it conained F1.

I have another way to upload it via facebook. Will do it tonight.



selnor1983 said:
Osc89 said:
selnor1983 said:

Im gonna try and record it on my HD camera. I'll try and upload. I have F1 saved so can show fast moving images. :)


Did you manage to record it yet? I would be interested in knowing if it is an issue for all TV or just when it is snapped with a game.


Yes. Youtube blocked it though because it conained F1.

I have another way to upload it via facebook. Will do it tonight.


Ok cool. Are you still not seeing any issues? How modern is your TV?



PSN: Osc89

NNID: Oscar89

Osc89 said:
selnor1983 said:
Osc89 said:
selnor1983 said:

Im gonna try and record it on my HD camera. I'll try and upload. I have F1 saved so can show fast moving images. :)


Did you manage to record it yet? I would be interested in knowing if it is an issue for all TV or just when it is snapped with a game.


Yes. Youtube blocked it though because it conained F1.

I have another way to upload it via facebook. Will do it tonight.


Ok cool. Are you still not seeing any issues? How modern is your TV?

Not noticing anything. I use it daily. Well the whole family does. Dont see a problem. I have a 2 and hald year old LG LED HD TV. Will make a new thread with it tonight. :)