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Forums - Politics - Catalonia independence

 

Catalonia Independance

Yes 25 43.10%
 
No 19 32.76%
 
Maybe 9 15.52%
 
WTF is Catalonia 4 6.90%
 
Total:57

Pienso que no hables de lo que no tienes ni jodida idea, now go to google translator



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JEMC said:
SlayerRondo said:
JEMC said:
SlayerRondo said:
JEMC said:
Oh, c'mon. Not here too!

I'm tired of this, it's almost 24/7 on TV, radio, newspapers. I thought I'd be safe here.


The plight of the Catalonians shall not be ignored.

The rotting leviathan of Spain shall not drag Catalonia down to the depths as the chains of oppression are cast off.

 

I'm catalonian so you can get your "plight of the Catalonians shall not be ignored" up your a**. I know a lot better than you what's happening here and why.

There are a lot of things to consider here (what happens the day after if people vote yes to independance? Where will the money to pay the pensionists come from, for example?), and not all of them rely on Spain and Catalonia only.

Sarcasm is so hard to get accross on the internet sadly. 

And the money for the pensionist would come from the Catalonian government presumably. Catalonians are on average better of than the standard Spanish citizen so it should not be much of an issue.

Your last sentence prooves that you don't know how the Spanish govermnent work.

It's Spain who gets the money from taxes, etc., and then it gives back to the different territories a part of the taxes collected in that zone. That's how the Generalitat (Catalonian gov.) gets most of its anual budget. The problem is that several territories get less money that they should (Madrid, Catalonia, Baleares get less money than the taxes their citizens have paid), others get more and a few have a special status that allow them to keep most of their own money without having to give it to Spain in the first place.

That's why your sentence makes no sense. If we declare independance, Spain won't give us money so the Generalitat will have to rely on debt (who will buy debt of a new country with so many unknowns?) until the next tax collect, every 3 months, happens.

But it's not only that, there are many other things that would be a problem.

 

@Player2: ¡Afortunadamente!

Firstly, the only thing Spain is known for is having a shaky economy so the new nation of Catalonia made up of the most economically vibrant regions of Spain would have less of a borrowing issue then Spain would without Catalonia.

Also Spain may have the money but it also has the debt. If they tried to hold Catalonia to ranson then Catalonia could refuse to take on any of the Spanish governments debt. 

Also a good shrinking of the government could be good for Catalonia in the long run.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

SlayerRondo said:
DamnTastic said:
I'm against full independence but more like catalonia being a state like in the US.
If catalonia becomes independent it's gonna start a chain in Europe where a lot of places want independence. Like here in Belgium with Flanders and Scotland and a bunch more


Why would you be against Scotland and flanders becoming independant?

And the States in America have little independance at all.

I just don't think that's the way to go. 

Tell me why it's better for everyone if they became independant nations?
Btw I voted for the Flemish Nationalist Party, but actually they don't want independence.



DamnTastic said:
SlayerRondo said:
DamnTastic said:
I'm against full independence but more like catalonia being a state like in the US.
If catalonia becomes independent it's gonna start a chain in Europe where a lot of places want independence. Like here in Belgium with Flanders and Scotland and a bunch more


Why would you be against Scotland and flanders becoming independant?

And the States in America have little independance at all.

I just don't think that's the way to go. 

Tell me why it's better for everyone if they became independant nations?
Btw I voted for the Flemish Nationalist Party, but actually they don't want independence.

And if most of the people dont think its they way to go I think it should remain a part of whatever country it currently is.

But larger nations tend to have regions performing poorly being subsidized rather than dealing with their problems which hurts everyone in the future.

Plus governments tend to better reflect the people in smaller nations.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

SlayerRondo said:
JEMC said:
SlayerRondo said:

And the money for the pensionist would come from the Catalonian government presumably. Catalonians are on average better of than the standard Spanish citizen so it should not be much of an issue.

Your last sentence prooves that you don't know how the Spanish govermnent work.

It's Spain who gets the money from taxes, etc., and then it gives back to the different territories a part of the taxes collected in that zone. That's how the Generalitat (Catalonian gov.) gets most of its anual budget. The problem is that several territories get less money that they should (Madrid, Catalonia, Baleares get less money than the taxes their citizens have paid), others get more and a few have a special status that allow them to keep most of their own money without having to give it to Spain in the first place.

That's why your sentence makes no sense. If we declare independance, Spain won't give us money so the Generalitat will have to rely on debt (who will buy debt of a new country with so many unknowns?) until the next tax collect, every 3 months, happens.

But it's not only that, there are many other things that would be a problem.

Firstly, the only thing Spain is known for is having a shaky economy so the new nation of Catalonia made up of the most economically vibrant regions of Spain would have less of a borrowing issue then Spain would without Catalonia.

Also Spain may have the money but it also has the debt. If they tried to hold Catalonia to ranson then Catalonia could refuse to take on any of the Spanish governments debt.

Catalonia's economy isn't as good as it used to be, and while technically it exports more to the rest of the world than to Spain (I think it's something like 55-45), that includes the petrochemical plant and SEAT, so the real situation is that more than 50% of the catalan economy relies in selling its good to Spain.

Becoming independent would imply getting out of the EU (said by the EU itself), so any goods that come from Catalonia would get extra taxes, making them more expensive. That, added with the rancor of quitting Spain, would have terrible consequences on our economy in our biggest market. Add the fact that we would also have to pay higher prices for what we import, and the situation gets even worse.

SlayerRondo said:

Also a good shrinking of the government could be good for Catalonia in the long run.

A shrink of the goverments would be good for every country. There are too many polititians that only God knows what they do.



Please excuse my bad English.

Former gaming PC: i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Current gaming PC: R5-7600, 32GB RAM 6000MT/s (CL30) and a RX 9060XT 16GB

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

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I'm fascinated by just how differently Catalonian, Scottish and Texas/Southern US independence is treated around here.

I'm generally pro independence, with the BIG caveat of the fact that I think it should require multiple votes over a 10 year period for independence to occur.

Like say, one vote every 3 years or so, requiring a 4th final successful vote for independence in the 10th year to allow the split, while the plans of the split are negotiated after the first vote.

Free Catalonia might sound nice on paper, but who knows based on the seperation terms, percentage of the debt they have to take on (you wouldn't expect to just be a debt free nation right?), Territory rights, power rights depending how the grid works... etc.



JEMC said:
SlayerRondo said:
JEMC said:
SlayerRondo said:

And the money for the pensionist would come from the Catalonian government presumably. Catalonians are on average better of than the standard Spanish citizen so it should not be much of an issue.

Your last sentence prooves that you don't know how the Spanish govermnent work.

It's Spain who gets the money from taxes, etc., and then it gives back to the different territories a part of the taxes collected in that zone. That's how the Generalitat (Catalonian gov.) gets most of its anual budget. The problem is that several territories get less money that they should (Madrid, Catalonia, Baleares get less money than the taxes their citizens have paid), others get more and a few have a special status that allow them to keep most of their own money without having to give it to Spain in the first place.

That's why your sentence makes no sense. If we declare independance, Spain won't give us money so the Generalitat will have to rely on debt (who will buy debt of a new country with so many unknowns?) until the next tax collect, every 3 months, happens.

But it's not only that, there are many other things that would be a problem.

Firstly, the only thing Spain is known for is having a shaky economy so the new nation of Catalonia made up of the most economically vibrant regions of Spain would have less of a borrowing issue then Spain would without Catalonia.

Also Spain may have the money but it also has the debt. If they tried to hold Catalonia to ranson then Catalonia could refuse to take on any of the Spanish governments debt.

Catalonia's economy isn't as good as it used to be, and while technically it exports more to the rest of the world than to Spain (I think it's something like 55-45), that includes the petrochemical plant and SEAT, so the real situation is that more than 50% of the catalan economy relies in selling its good to Spain.

Becoming independent would imply getting out of the EU (said by the EU itself), so any goods that come from Catalonia would get extra taxes, making them more expensive. That, added with the rancor of quitting Spain, would have terrible consequences on our economy in our biggest market. Add the fact that we would also have to pay higher prices for what we import, and the situation gets even worse.

SlayerRondo said:

Also a good shrinking of the government could be good for Catalonia in the long run.

A shrink of the goverments would be good for every country. There are too many polititians that only God knows what they do.

I agree that dealing with the EU and joining as a member nation before full independance would be the right course of action.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

Kasz216 said:
I'm fascinated by just how differently Catalonian, Scottish and Texas/Southern US independence is treated around here.

I'm generally pro independence, with the BIG caveat of the fact that I think it should require multiple votes over a 10 year period for independence to occur.

Like say, one vote every 3 years or so, requiring a 4th final successful vote for independence in the 10th year to allow the split, while the plans of the split are negotiated after the first vote.

Free Catalonia might sound nice on paper, but who knows based on the seperation terms, percentage of the debt they have to take on (you wouldn't expect to just be a debt free nation right?), Territory rights, power rights depending how the grid works... etc.

Power grid wouldn't be a problem. We have hydroelectric plants in the Pyrenees, as well as 2 Nuclear Plants and a connention with France. Water, depending on what the Spanich gov could do with the river Ebro, wouldn't be much of a problem too.



Please excuse my bad English.

Former gaming PC: i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Current gaming PC: R5-7600, 32GB RAM 6000MT/s (CL30) and a RX 9060XT 16GB

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

lestatdark said:

The problem with most European countries and their different regions is that those said regions are "burnt" out or completly alienated from their own central goverment.

For example, here in Portugal, the entire north region of the country suffers heavily from the centralization of funds and resources around the Lisbon area. While Porto, Braga and Aveiro districts are the main industrious force of the country (more than 45% of Portugal's Entire GDP is located in those three districts alone), 90% of the european funds go entirely to Lisbon. More and more there's talks of at least forming a regional goverment of the north so we can at least get a much fairer share, or else the situation will be unsustainable in the near future.

Not saying that's the case with Flanders (didn't knew that there was a separatist feeling in Belgium, we don't get that many news from you guys over here sadly) or Scotland, but situations like that can quickly erode a nation.

Scotland is actually the opposite.  They get an outsized amount of funds from the UK, and generally have more generous programs then other areas.

Scottish independence basically wants to kill the golden egg.



SlayerRondo said:

I agree that dealing with the EU and joining as a member nation before full independance would be the right course of action.

Tell that to the EU, who didn't thought that one of their members could face a secession. What they said so far, is that if Catalonia separates from Spain, then it will a new country outside of the EU.

But I don't think that would happen. There are too many dangers in doing that with Catalonia.



Please excuse my bad English.

Former gaming PC: i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Current gaming PC: R5-7600, 32GB RAM 6000MT/s (CL30) and a RX 9060XT 16GB

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.