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Forums - General Discussion - Sexy and Sexism are not the same thing?

 

Does Sexy = Sexism

No 113 80.14%
 
Yes 7 4.96%
 
Maybe 2 1.42%
 
Sometimes 11 7.80%
 
See Results 7 4.96%
 
Total:140
Fifaguy360 said:
Zero Suit is not modest because it's so tight that it looks like another layer of skin. It's an efficient suit for its purpose perhaps, but not modest.

It's modest in the sense that she could just as easily be in there naked, or just wearing a bikini, etc. Instead, she wears a full body suit. In other words, it's modest in comparison with actually showing skin.



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MikeRox said:
Having spoken to quite a few female gamers back before all this blew up on the internet. The overwhelming majority of them actually liked the physical assets of characters such as Lara Croft.

They wanted to play as "attractive" strong female characters as much as teenage boys did.

That was the reason Tomb Raider had such a wide appeal back when it originally came out.

I do wonder if the sexism row is actually a very vocal minority rather than a general consensus.

Just my 2p and throwing another POV out there but keep up the debate. Overall this has been one of the better threads I've seen on here.


I don't know anyone that has a problem with Lara Croft.  Using Lara Croft as an example is sort of a strawman arguement.


There is a plenty big differnece between attractive girl in a game... and pantyhose and underwear as an outfit.



Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Kasz216 said:

 


 

PS: Blackface was done for the express purpose  degrading black people, the bikini in MGS5 was done to make the character look sexy to appeal to men so they would buy figurines.


Blackface was done to ENTERTAIN white people by degrading black people.  It was appealing to a white demographic to make them feel superior.  It wasn't done out of spite.  It wasn't done specifically to degrade black people.    

White people didn't think enough about black people back then to intentionally.   If it didn't make white people laugh it wouldn't of existed.

 

The MSG5 character was done to appeal to men, by objectifying women.  If that woman was dressed like a regular soldier, in a soldier outfit, people wouldn't find it offensive, and the woman would still be attractive as hell and appeal to the male demographic.

 

I mean

 

Works just as well as

 

 

 

With the added benefit of not looking stupid. (or offensive.)

Blackface performances were feeding of the spite that some white people held towards black people because of their own notion of superiority. Blackface appealed to this by degrading black people to create a gap enabling some white people to feel superior. And yes of course some people were entertained by it, if no one was then they would have been unable to do so, and therefore I did not feel the need to specifically mention that fact.

And as to your example, I agree with you 100% and think that if anything having to many over sexualized characters not only takes away from the narrative by being over the top but takes away from the impact that sexy characters or scenes can have. But some people like over the top sexy designs more than normal more realistic one's.

Also in regards to your comparison, despite being more clothed do you not appreciate the women in the picture for their objective characteristics? I mean what do know about their peronalities or individuality? What is the difference in appreciating a sexy character who wears more or less clothes? How can you claim to know the MGS5 character have been objectified as you have not been able to play the game and determine if they failed to provide her with characteristics and individuality beyond her design?

I just don't understand why we can no longer appreciate the objective characteristics that people have, without being accused of disregarding their personality?



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

SlayerRondo said:
Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:

 


 

 

 

 

Blackface performances were feeding of the spite that some white people held towards black people because of their own notion of superiority. Blackface appealed to this by degrading black people to create a gap enabling some white people to feel superior. And yes of course some people were entertained by it, if no one was then they would have been unable to do so, and therefore I did not feel the need to specifically mention that fact.

And as to your example, I agree with you 100% and think that if anything having to many over sexualized characters not only takes away from the narrative by being over the top but takes away from the impact that sexy characters or scenes can have. But some people like over the top sexy designs more than normal more realistic one's.

Also in regards to your comparison, despite being more clothed do you not appreciate the women in the picture for their objective characteristics? I mean what do know about their peronalities or individuality? What is the difference in appreciating a sexy character who wears more or less clothes? How can you claim to know the MGS5 character have been objectified as you have not been able to play the game and determine if they failed to provide her with characteristics and individuality beyond her design?

I just don't understand why we can no longer appreciate the objective characteristics that people have, without being accused of disregarding their personality?


And the oversexulized character designs like in MGS5 feed on men's feelings of superiority towards women and the believe that men are superior and a woman's looks should be based soley on what men find attractive by giving her ridcuilious pointless clothing that doesn't make sense.  See also female armour in fantasy.

 

1) How can we claim to now MGS5 has been objectified without playing it?  I already explained this.  Do you not read posts fully because you keep asking for stuff that's been already provided.

Previous Kojima works make it more then reasonable to guess that to be the case.  If someone has a history of writing of sterotypically racist characters, and you suddenly see a desciription from his next book that takes the notch up to 11... i'd say it's fair to think.  "uh oh."

 

2)  You can totally appreciate people physical charactersitics.  It's just a matter of doing it in a way that's not objectifying.  Aka reducing them to an object.  That's what objectifying means.  Seriously, actually watch the link earlier.

A character who fights a war in Bikini's and pantyhose is going to be objectified no matter how fleshed out their character is.  



Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:

Then the problem is not the sexualization of female characters but the absense of personal characteristics or individuality, which given that MGS5 has not come out yet, cannot really be determined for the new character.

Also Kratos may be idealised, but he was not so strong on personality, but big on physical strength, which kinda fits the definition of objectification.

Also I dont have much of a problem with objectification, the idea that we are a seperate being from our bodies does not appeal to me at all.


Did you actually watch the video.. because it gave way different definitions of idealization and objectification then that.

As for waiting for MGS5... I mean i think we can make some guesses based on MGS general writing of female characters in the past and in general, the juvenile undertones of the series. (In dealing with sex.)

I have watched the video and agreed that the characters in the game were targeted towards a part of the male demographic. 

The game chose to aim towards a certain demographic to the detriment of another. Every form of media on the planet makes decisions to aim programs towards particular demographics including female or male.

The game Dragons Crown was clearly aimed towards men, but it was also clearly unrealistic and fictional. No one will play the game and think the developer is trying to claim that "this is what women are" or "this is what women should be".



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

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Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:

 


 

 

 

 

Blackface performances were feeding of the spite that some white people held towards black people because of their own notion of superiority. Blackface appealed to this by degrading black people to create a gap enabling some white people to feel superior. And yes of course some people were entertained by it, if no one was then they would have been unable to do so, and therefore I did not feel the need to specifically mention that fact.

And as to your example, I agree with you 100% and think that if anything having to many over sexualized characters not only takes away from the narrative by being over the top but takes away from the impact that sexy characters or scenes can have. But some people like over the top sexy designs more than normal more realistic one's.

Also in regards to your comparison, despite being more clothed do you not appreciate the women in the picture for their objective characteristics? I mean what do know about their peronalities or individuality? What is the difference in appreciating a sexy character who wears more or less clothes? How can you claim to know the MGS5 character have been objectified as you have not been able to play the game and determine if they failed to provide her with characteristics and individuality beyond her design?

I just don't understand why we can no longer appreciate the objective characteristics that people have, without being accused of disregarding their personality?


And the oversexulized character designs like in MGS5 feed on men's feelings of superiority towards women and the believe that men are superior and a woman's looks should be based soley on what men find attractive by giving her ridcuilious pointless clothing that doesn't make sense.  See also female armour in fantasy.

 

 

 

This is complete crap. I like "oversexualized" (see mass effect and dragon age females) characters because they're hot, not because of some superioty complex.

Way to white knight and paint with a broad brush. 





SlayerRondo said:
Osc89 said:
SlayerRondo said:

But looking at it from the developers view they are probably trying to appeal to the male demographic, which has different taste and preferences to the female demographic and therefore the characters would be treated differently as men don't want to constantly see topless men but skantaly clad women.

While far less games are geared towards women than men, the idea that games cannot aim for a particular demographic is detrimental given the particular and differing demands from video games that you will get from men and women.

If they make a MGS game with topless men and women dressed in full commando gear I would be 100% fine with it and applaud Konami for giving the underappreciated female demographic their due.


Targeting the male demographic is inherently sexist, as you are assuming that all men are looking for the same thing in their games. On top of that, in your example they are assuming that what men are looking for is the female characters to be treated differently from the male charaters, which is another layer of sexism.

The funny thing is, I don't actually think that was what they were going for in this case. Apprently they were doing it for the cosplay, so they are actually targeting women. Of course, that can also be seen as sexist as they are assuming what women look for in cosplay is scantily clad (read objectified) women.

Fistly, I obviously meant that they were going a subsection of the male demographic, the one's who appreciate sexual appeal in their games. Not all games appeal to everyone and some choose to go for a smaller demographic in exchange for a higher percentage of said demographic.

And yes some men do sometimes want different things from female characters then they do from male characters. I can honestly say a women in a bikini appeals to me more than a man in a pair of swimming trunks, and many men would say the same. Do I always want sexy female characters? No I don't.

If a game company said that they wanted to appeal to the Korean demographic by releasing a new MMORPG over their, would you then say "not all Koreans like MMORPG therefore you are descriminating against Koreans? I guessing you would not start talking in absolutes like you did before.

And the reason why the sexy cosplay sells is not because some women (NOT ALL) want to look scantily clad, but want attention from men who like how they look, or identify with a character that happens to be sexy.


You clearly referred to "the male demographic" and "the female demographic", so my response was addressing the sexism in those terms. I'm not calling you sexist, I'm just pointing out that those phrases are sexist by definition.

In your MMORPG example, the classification of a "Korean demographic" by the game company is technically racism, as they have divided the Koreans into a group with one particular characteristic.

And I wasn't assuming what women look for in cosplay, I was talking about what Kojima thought women want in cosplay.



PSN: Osc89

NNID: Oscar89

Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Osc89 said:
JoeTheBro said:

 

 


But looking at it from the developers view they are probably trying to appeal to the male demographic, which has different taste and preferences to the female demographic and therefore the characters would be treated differently as men don't want to constantly see topless men but skantaly clad women.

While far less games are geared towards women than men, the idea that games cannot aim for a particular demographic is detrimental given the particular and differing demands from video games that you will get from men and women.

If they make a MGS game with topless men and women dressed in full commando gear I would be 100% fine with it and applaud Konami for giving the underappreciated female demographic their due.


I agree.  There's nothing wrong with appealing specifically to one demographic even if it offends another.

Lets bring back some of the old character designs that were deemed offensive to specific groups.

For example.

 

(note.  Sarcasm!)

You know there are media that caters exclusively to women; See boybands, media like Twilight/50 shades of grey, bishie/yoai anime etc.

 

They fix appearances, attitudes, emotions, etc to fit what would appeal to females.

 

Yeah when this happens for something towards males, it's wrong, sexist, and pandering.

 

Dat double standard.

 



Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:

 


 

 

 

 

Blackface performances were feeding of the spite that some white people held towards black people because of their own notion of superiority. Blackface appealed to this by degrading black people to create a gap enabling some white people to feel superior. And yes of course some people were entertained by it, if no one was then they would have been unable to do so, and therefore I did not feel the need to specifically mention that fact.

And as to your example, I agree with you 100% and think that if anything having to many over sexualized characters not only takes away from the narrative by being over the top but takes away from the impact that sexy characters or scenes can have. But some people like over the top sexy designs more than normal more realistic one's.

Also in regards to your comparison, despite being more clothed do you not appreciate the women in the picture for their objective characteristics? I mean what do know about their peronalities or individuality? What is the difference in appreciating a sexy character who wears more or less clothes? How can you claim to know the MGS5 character have been objectified as you have not been able to play the game and determine if they failed to provide her with characteristics and individuality beyond her design?

I just don't understand why we can no longer appreciate the objective characteristics that people have, without being accused of disregarding their personality?


And the oversexulized character designs like in MGS5 feed on men's feelings of superiority towards women and the believe that men are superior and a woman's looks should be based soley on what men find attractive by giving her ridcuilious pointless clothing that doesn't make sense.  See also female armour in fantasy.

 

1) How can we claim to now MGS5 has been objectified without playing it?  I already explained this.  Do you not read posts fully because you keep asking for stuff that's been already provided.

Previous Kojima works make it more then reasonable to guess that to be the case.  If someone has a history of writing of sterotypically racist characters, and you suddenly see a desciription from his next book that takes the notch up to 11... i'd say it's fair to think.  "uh oh."

 

2)  You can totally appreciate people physical charactersitics.  It's just a matter of doing it in a way that's not objectifying.  Aka reducing them to an object.  That's what objectifying means.  Seriously, actually watch the link earlier.

A character who fights a war in Bikini's and pantyhose is going to be objectified no matter how fleshed out their character is.  


1) I dont like discussing guess work as I believe the developer deserves to be judged on what is not what may be.

2) Yes you can appreciate the physical characteristics without objectifying someone. But when it comes to a picture and a short clip of a character all you have to appreciate is their physical characteristics you cant really do anything but objectify.

And "A character who fights a war in Bikini's and pantyhose is going to be objectified no matter how fleshed out their character is. " is a contradiction. You can't have a fleshed out character and be objectified. 



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

Kasz216 said:
Osc89 said:
Kasz216 said:
Osc89 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Osc89 said:
JoeTheBro said:

 

 

 

 


I really don't know, but they have to exist. I can't see why else they would keep adding it to games if there wasn't someone who wanted it.

Not nessisairly.

While captialism is extremely efficent at refining products to mass marketability.  Things that don't matter can persist, just because they don't matter and used to matter at some point.

 

A sexy character might not cause anyone to buy a game anymore, or at least not a large amount of people, but it wont turn anyone off from a game either.  Or at least not many, because even with the gigantic amount of female gamers around now a days they sort of grew up with this, in this culture, so while it annoys them and they roll their eyes, they still buy it because they want to play a videogame.

Please stop projecting your opinions on to others.  I sure there are plenty of males that like these designs (nothing wrong with that in the first place and I'm one of them) or most developers wouldn't put it into games.

We're talking mutli-billion corporations that do extensive research in marketing. I think they'd know what thier demographic do or do not want.