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Forums - General - Sexy and Sexism are not the same thing?

 

Does Sexy = Sexism

No 113 80.14%
 
Yes 7 4.96%
 
Maybe 2 1.42%
 
Sometimes 11 7.80%
 
See Results 7 4.96%
 
Total:140
Osc89 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Osc89 said:
SlayerRondo said:

But looking at it from the developers view they are probably trying to appeal to the male demographic, which has different taste and preferences to the female demographic and therefore the characters would be treated differently as men don't want to constantly see topless men but skantaly clad women.

While far less games are geared towards women than men, the idea that games cannot aim for a particular demographic is detrimental given the particular and differing demands from video games that you will get from men and women.

If they make a MGS game with topless men and women dressed in full commando gear I would be 100% fine with it and applaud Konami for giving the underappreciated female demographic their due.


Targeting the male demographic is inherently sexist, as you are assuming that all men are looking for the same thing in their games. On top of that, in your example they are assuming that what men are looking for is the female characters to be treated differently from the male charaters, which is another layer of sexism.

The funny thing is, I don't actually think that was what they were going for in this case. Apprently they were doing it for the cosplay, so they are actually targeting women. Of course, that can also be seen as sexist as they are assuming what women look for in cosplay is scantily clad (read objectified) women.

Fistly, I obviously meant that they were going a subsection of the male demographic, the one's who appreciate sexual appeal in their games. Not all games appeal to everyone and some choose to go for a smaller demographic in exchange for a higher percentage of said demographic.

And yes some men do sometimes want different things from female characters then they do from male characters. I can honestly say a women in a bikini appeals to me more than a man in a pair of swimming trunks, and many men would say the same. Do I always want sexy female characters? No I don't.

If a game company said that they wanted to appeal to the Korean demographic by releasing a new MMORPG over their, would you then say "not all Koreans like MMORPG therefore you are descriminating against Koreans? I guessing you would not start talking in absolutes like you did before.

And the reason why the sexy cosplay sells is not because some women (NOT ALL) want to look scantily clad, but want attention from men who like how they look, or identify with a character that happens to be sexy.


You clearly referred to "the male demographic" and "the female demographic", so my response was addressing the sexism in those terms. I'm not calling you sexist, I'm just pointing out that those phrases are sexist by definition.

In your MMORPG example, the classification of a "Korean demographic" by the game company is technically racism, as they have divided the Koreans into a group with one particular characteristic.

And I wasn't assuming what women look for in cosplay, I was talking about what Kojima thought women want in cosplay.

1) The truth is not sexist. Their are differences between what the average male and what the average woman wants from video games and other media. If you worked in a companies marketing department and said that there is no difference in appealing to women and men, you would be fired immediately.

2) I was referring to the Korean nationality to the ethnic group, betraying your obsession with race. People of the Korean nationality  have a greater MMORPG culture than other nations and therefore it makes sense to release an MMORPG in that market. Does not mean all Koreans play MMORPG, just more than average.

3) And he is right, some women are looking for skimpy looking cosplay outfits. Are you claiming he was making an absolute statement about what all women want from cosplay?



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TBH if there were more designs like Fenris and Zervan (dragon age), Thane (Mass Effect), Vamp (MGS), there would be a lot less crying about objectifying in games.

The characters I mentioned above were designed primarily towards female gamers. They have a huge fan bases with them and are seen as very attractive characters.

Granted, it's probably a problem that I can up with only 4 of these types ATM, when they are possibly thousands of designs aimed towards men.

I think it's more about equality than a stance about sexual objectifying content.

I'm sure most female gamers wouldn't mind more characters (and designs) like the few I mentioned.



Noctis23 said:
Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Osc89 said:
JoeTheBro said:

 

 

 


You know there are media that caters exclusively to women; See boybands, media like Twilight/50 shades of grey, bishie/yoai anime etc.

 

They fix appearances, attitudes, emotions, etc to fit what would appeal to females.

 

Yeah when this happens for something towards males, it's wrong, sexist, and pandering.

 

Dat double standard.

 

Outside Boybands you didn't get any of that right.

Outside which...

A) You mentioned specific portions of a genre.  As opposed to just videogames which is an entire thing more or less.  A specific niche in a medium is a little bit different then the majority of the content in an entire medium.

 

B)  Do you see progressive taxation as a double standard?  



Noctis23 said:
Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:

 


 

 

 

 

 


And the oversexulized character designs like in MGS5 feed on men's feelings of superiority towards women and the believe that men are superior and a woman's looks should be based soley on what men find attractive by giving her ridcuilious pointless clothing that doesn't make sense.  See also female armour in fantasy.

 

 

 

This is complete crap. I like "oversexualized" (see mass effect and dragon age females) characters because they're hot, not because of some superioty complex.

Way to white knight and paint with a broad brush. 

 

White people found blackface funny because of their superiority complex.

You find oversexualized women attractive because of.... your superiority complex.

 

Otherwise, it would just seem sort of ridiculious and out of place.


As for "White Knighting".   I don't think you know what that term means.

Since as far as I can tell there hasn't been a female in this thread, and relly aren't many on the site in general.  I can't actually even name an active female user on the site off hand.



SlayerRondo said:


1) I dont like discussing guess work as I believe the developer deserves to be judged on what is not what may be.

2) Yes you can appreciate the physical characteristics without objectifying someone. But when it comes to a picture and a short clip of a character all you have to appreciate is their physical characteristics you cant really do anything but objectify.

And "A character who fights a war in Bikini's and pantyhose is going to be objectified no matter how fleshed out their character is. " is a contradiction. You can't have a fleshed out character and be objectified. 


1) So you've never thought "This game is going to be awesome' or "this game is going to suck" based on the deveoper and past works?  If you open a Hershey Bar wrapper 4 times there is a hershey bar in their, do you not like to assume their will be a candy bar there?   And instead assume their will be a celery stick in their because it's a healthier option?

2)  Not sure what that has to do with a videogame.  It's not like their isn't media where objectifying isn't bad.  I mean that's pretty much the whole point of porn for example.   In media that's primary goal isn't to sexual gratify you though.  There is really little room for objectification.

 

3) Yes you can.    Kesha for example has a genius level IQ, would sneak into universites to attend lectures and tons of other shit, and people who know this still objectify the shit out of her.  Why?  She's attractive, dresses in sexy stupud outfits and sings about sex.

 

Using the MGS5 example.  Her outfit is objectifying.  Their is no way around that no matter how much character depth and personality you throw into the character... unless you come up for a reason why she isn't dressed like a normal person like the hundreds of other soldiers that will be in the game.  

It's cheaply transparent.



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Kasz216 said:
Noctis23 said:
Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Osc89 said:
JoeTheBro said:

 

 

 


You know there are media that caters exclusively to women; See boybands, media like Twilight/50 shades of grey, bishie/yoai anime etc.

 

They fix appearances, attitudes, emotions, etc to fit what would appeal to females.

 

Yeah when this happens for something towards males, it's wrong, sexist, and pandering.

 

Dat double standard.

 

Outside Boybands you didn't get any of that right.

Outside which...

A) You mentioned specific portions of a genre.  As opposed to just videogames which is an entire thing more or less.  A specific niche in a medium is a little bit different then the majority of the content in an entire medium.

 

B)  Do you see progressive taxation as a double standard?  

Like it or not, the majority of hardcore gaming is made up of males, so the industry (which is filled with mostly males) is going to cater to that demographic.

We could see a change if more women showed an interest in computer programing and/or video game design/development, but a las the majority of them seemed to be uninterested in those type of careers. (or anything computer science related)





SlayerRondo said:
Osc89 said:
SlayerRondo said:

Fistly, I obviously meant that they were going a subsection of the male demographic, the one's who appreciate sexual appeal in their games. Not all games appeal to everyone and some choose to go for a smaller demographic in exchange for a higher percentage of said demographic.

And yes some men do sometimes want different things from female characters then they do from male characters. I can honestly say a women in a bikini appeals to me more than a man in a pair of swimming trunks, and many men would say the same. Do I always want sexy female characters? No I don't.

If a game company said that they wanted to appeal to the Korean demographic by releasing a new MMORPG over their, would you then say "not all Koreans like MMORPG therefore you are descriminating against Koreans? I guessing you would not start talking in absolutes like you did before.

And the reason why the sexy cosplay sells is not because some women (NOT ALL) want to look scantily clad, but want attention from men who like how they look, or identify with a character that happens to be sexy.


You clearly referred to "the male demographic" and "the female demographic", so my response was addressing the sexism in those terms. I'm not calling you sexist, I'm just pointing out that those phrases are sexist by definition.

In your MMORPG example, the classification of a "Korean demographic" by the game company is technically racism, as they have divided the Koreans into a group with one particular characteristic.

And I wasn't assuming what women look for in cosplay, I was talking about what Kojima thought women want in cosplay.

1) The truth is not sexist. Their are differences between what the average male and what the average woman wants from video games and other media. If you worked in a companies marketing department and said that there is no difference in appealing to women and men, you would be fired immediately.

2) I was referring to the Korean nationality to the ethnic group, betraying your obsession with race. People of the Korean nationality  have a greater MMORPG culture than other nations and therefore it makes sense to release an MMORPG in that market. Does not mean all Koreans play MMORPG, just more than average.

3) And he is right, some women are looking for skimpy looking cosplay outfits. Are you claiming he was making an absolute statement about what all women want from cosplay?


That is quite an outdated view. I'll think you'll find that marketing is moving away from the idea of targeting specific genders. One recent example is Toys R Us doing it for their toys: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/toys-r-us-to-stop-marketing-its-toys-by-gender-in-wake-of-sexism-claims-8798959.html

Racism is a broad term, and can refer to people categorised by culture, ethnicity, genetics, geography and lots of other things. Making a generalisation of any nationality is racism.

I don't know whether he was making an absolute statement or not, which is why I said it "can also be seen as sexist" rather than "is sexist".



PSN: Osc89

NNID: Oscar89

Kasz216 said:
Noctis23 said:
Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:

 


 

 

 

 

 


And the oversexulized character designs like in MGS5 feed on men's feelings of superiority towards women and the believe that men are superior and a woman's looks should be based soley on what men find attractive by giving her ridcuilious pointless clothing that doesn't make sense.  See also female armour in fantasy.

 

 

 

This is complete crap. I like "oversexualized" (see mass effect and dragon age females) characters because they're hot, not because of some superioty complex.

Way to white knight and paint with a broad brush. 

 

White people found blackface funny because of their superiority complex.

You find oversexualized women attractive because of.... your superiority complex.

 

Otherwise, it would just seem sort of ridiculious and out of place.


As for "White Knighting".   I don't think you know what that term means.

Since as far as I can tell there hasn't been a female in this thread, and relly aren't many on the site in general.  I can't actually even name an active female user on the site off hand.

I'm going to stop replying to this thread before i say something that could get me banned. You know nothing about me, how the hell could you possibly know why I like looking at sexualized females? 

Other than labeling me based on your preconceptions.



Noctis23 said:
Kasz216 said:
Noctis23 said:
Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Osc89 said:
JoeTheBro said:

 

 

 


 

Outside Boybands you didn't get any of that right.

Outside which...

A) You mentioned specific portions of a genre.  As opposed to just videogames which is an entire thing more or less.  A specific niche in a medium is a little bit different then the majority of the content in an entire medium.

 

B)  Do you see progressive taxation as a double standard?  

Like it or not, the majority of hardcore gaming is made up of males, so the industry (which is filled with mostly males) is going to cater to that demographic.

We could see a change if more women showed an interest in computer programing and/or video game design/development, but a las the majority of them seemed to be uninterested in those type of careers. (or anything computer science related)




Not as much as you'd think, no.

 For example, PSP was the more hardcore handheld... yet it's ownership was > 50% Female.


Women make up about 45% of the dedicated console market.


It's just a common misconception made because most girl gamers don't identify themselves as such online / avoid mentioning they play videogames to people casually to avoid all the annoyances that go with it.  (Claims of fake gamer girl etc.)

So your belief is a bit outdated.



Kasz216 said:
Noctis23 said:
Kasz216 said:
Noctis23 said:
Kasz216 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Osc89 said:
JoeTheBro said:

 

 

 


 

Outside Boybands you didn't get any of that right.

Outside which...

A) You mentioned specific portions of a genre.  As opposed to just videogames which is an entire thing more or less.  A specific niche in a medium is a little bit different then the majority of the content in an entire medium.

 

B)  Do you see progressive taxation as a double standard?  

Like it or not, the majority of hardcore gaming is made up of males, so the industry (which is filled with mostly males) is going to cater to that demographic.

We could see a change if more women showed an interest in computer programing and/or video game design/development, but a las the majority of them seemed to be uninterested in those type of careers. (or anything computer science related)




Not as much as you'd think, no.

 For example, PSP was the more hardcore handheld... yet it's ownership was > 50% Female.


Women make up about 45% of the dedicated console market.


It's just a common misconception made because most girl gamers don't identify themselves as such online / avoid mentioning they play videogames to people casually to avoid all the annoyances that go with it.  (Claims of fake gamer girl etc.)

How many of these women only have consoles for the sake of Netflix, Hulu, etc? 

 

45% is a HUGE number. It's hard for me to believe that's accurate. I've played thousands upon thousands of multiplayer games in Halo (3, Reach, and 4), Mass Effect 3, etc and I've only come across a handful of female gamers. 

Only 1 female on my friends list and the rest are male. It may be anecdotal but I think it's enough for a decent sample size.

Edit: If you're going by Xbox Gold numbers, you have to have that subscription in order to watch apps such as Netflix, Vudu, Hulu, Crunchyroll, etc.