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Forums - General Discussion - JESUS WAS A GOVERNMENT PLOT: Confirmed says Joseph Atwill

allenmaher said:


Zeitgeist  is a poorly done set of conspiracy movies that attempt to weave together a whole bunch of things into a glorioulsly paranoid whole but has a lot of trouble keeping the facts straight (well just makes shit up when it is convienient).  It is a really bad source to quote from, and frankly not worth watching.

Sounds like 911's loose change. Lol these things are hilarious. I shall look for it for the laughs



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dsgrue3 said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
I'm not a religious man, but I do know the Jesus existed. Has anyone here been to Isreal? I have, I walked most of the path that Jesus would have walked charring the cross. There's a part in the old city where it's said he stumbled and reached his hand out and touched the wall to regain his balance. In that very spot on the wall is a near perfect outline of a hand eroded in the wall. I knew nothing about it till I passed and seen a group of people surrounding the area lead by a guide. As I approached the wall to see what the fuss was about I felt a surge of "power" ( really the only way I can describe it) rush over my body, and I felt "awake" like I've never been before in my life. It was probably the single strangest thing to ever happen to me in my life. Then I listened to the guild explain the story to the group of people she was leading. I still don't go to church, is still don't pray or look to sky's for some being to help me throughout my life. But I know Jesus was real. And I don't think you'll find a single Israeli the will deny his existence. They will only deny that he was the son of god. But he was a real person.

You know more than scholars/historian/academics then. They simply conclude there proponderance of evidence is enough to suggest he existed. Those nutbags telling you that Jesus walked here and there are just propagating total bullshit to your face while you suck it up. 

I will never understand why a personal experience so simple as this is compelling to some individuals who don't want to provide naturalistic explanations for what occurred and instead decide to abandon their rationality and substitute mysticism.

Then again, it's kind of like my writing a book about Xenu, WWIII occurring - destroying all records of people, and then concluding that Xenu is more likely to exist than not. It's a conclusion based upon very limited resources.

HeavenlyWarrior said:
I believe in the flood, but not the way the bible describes

The is evidence for a local flood, so perhaps you aren't far off. 

Most rivers flood, the city of Calgary flooded this year, local floods are not a particularily noteworthy pheomina (Edit: unless you happen to be in the way).  As and earth scientist i am qualified to say that the evidence presented for a biblical flood does not constitute credible evidence.  But lets walk through the math a little to illustrate the point:

A rough estimate of the water on earth 1,382,288,000 km^3  97.302% of which is already in the oceans  the vast majority remaining is in glaciers or ground water >98% of it, about 0.035% of the water on earth is in the atmosphere and has a mean residence time of about 2 weeks.

The size of the Earth is 510,072,000 km2 and the highest point on earth is 8,848m above sea level.  meaning it would take aproximately (and this is a ballpark figure that does not acount for the undulating land masses because loading a global dem and running a full calc would take a long time) 4,488,072,000 km3 to innundate everything.  If you take every drop of water that is not already in the ocean you have 37,288,000 km3. You can't take the water from the oceans or lakes for that matter since you would just have to fill them up again, so you have about 72% of that or 26,847,000 km3 of water including polar glaciers.  That is 0.005%of what you would need.  Unless you are superheating the earth to hold more water it would take 13,241,940 years to happen through rain even if you could find the other 99.995% of the required water.

So despite the fact that if you accept religeous texts as historical evidence this may be considered historical 'fact' (people wrote about it after all).  It quite simply did not happen.  It is not remotely in the realm of possibility.  So yes, it is far off the mark.

Edit: I made a transpostitional error, groggy, it is now corrected.



allenmaher said:
dsgrue3 said:
HeavenlyWarrior said:
I believe in the flood, but not the way the bible describes

The is evidence for a local flood, so perhaps you aren't far off. 

Most rivers flood, the city of Calgary flooded this year, local floods are not a particularily noteworthy pheomina.  As and earth scientist i am qualified to say that the evidence presented for a biblical flood does not constitute credible evidence.  But lets walk through the math a little to illustrate the point:

A rough estimate of the water on earth 1,382,288,000 km^3  97.302% of which is already in the oceans  the vast majority remaining is in glaciers or ground water >98% of it, about 0.035% of the water on earth is in the atmosphere and has a mean residence time of about 2 weeks.

The size of the Earth is 510,072,000 km2 and the highest point on earth is 8,848m above sea level.  meaning it would take aproximately (and this is a ballpark figure that does not acount for the undulating land masses because loading a global dem and running a full calc would take a long time) 4,488,072,000 km3 to innundate everything.  If you take every drop of water that is not already in the ocean you have 37,288,000 km3. You can't take the water from the oceans or lakes for that matter since you would just have to fill them up again, so you have about 27% of that or 10,068,000 km3 of water including polar glaciers.  That is 0.000002228 % of what you would need.  Unless you are superheating the earth to hold more water it would take 13,241,940 years to happen through rain even if you could find the other 99.9999% of the required water.

So despite the fact that if you accept religeous texts as historical evidence this may be considered historical 'fact' (people wrote about it after all).  It quite simply did not happen.  It is not remotely in the realm of possibility.  So yes, it is far off the mark.

I'm not sure if you were really wanting to respond to me? I certainly don't believe in any global flood.

From what I read, it would have to rain 200 inches per hour for 20 days and nights to reach the dizzying amount of water necessary to cover Everest. 200 inches is more than it rains in a year on the wettest places on the planet. Of course, the water cycle is well-established and known to be an equivalency. When it rains, water isn't added to the planet, it simply recycles the water on the planet. 

So where did this water come from? Thin air, like the rest of the biblical absurdities. 



Mmmfishtacos said:
I'm not a religious man, but I do know the Jesus existed. Has anyone here been to Isreal? I have, I walked most of the path that Jesus would have walked charring the cross. There's a part in the old city where it's said he stumbled and reached his hand out and touched the wall to regain his balance. In that very spot on the wall is a near perfect outline of a hand eroded in the wall. I knew nothing about it till I passed and seen a group of people surrounding the area lead by a guide. As I approached the wall to see what the fuss was about I felt a surge of "power" ( really the only way I can describe it) rush over my body, and I felt "awake" like I've never been before in my life. It was probably the single strangest thing to ever happen to me in my life. Then I listened to the guild explain the story to the group of people she was leading. I still don't go to church, is still don't pray or look to sky's for some being to help me throughout my life. But I know Jesus was real. And I don't think you'll find a single Israeli the will deny his existence. They will only deny that he was the son of god. But he was a real person.

So how came you made a trip to Israel and walked the Via Dolorosa?

As a believer I would really like to do a pilgrimage to Israel one day.



Zero999 said:
RCTjunkie said:
This bell and whistle has been blown numerous times before and debunked over and over again.

Nonetheless, I'll be sure to check this out.

for stuff like this to be "debunked", religion has to prove their stories first, wich never happened.

Jesus being a real person is a proven historic fact. His deistic status is debateable.



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If you read the book of Jó, chapter 40, it describes an animal

I'm going to challege you, what animal is that?



Slimebeast said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
I'm not a religious man, but I do know the Jesus existed. Has anyone here been to Isreal? I have, I walked most of the path that Jesus would have walked charring the cross. There's a part in the old city where it's said he stumbled and reached his hand out and touched the wall to regain his balance. In that very spot on the wall is a near perfect outline of a hand eroded in the wall. I knew nothing about it till I passed and seen a group of people surrounding the area lead by a guide. As I approached the wall to see what the fuss was about I felt a surge of "power" ( really the only way I can describe it) rush over my body, and I felt "awake" like I've never been before in my life. It was probably the single strangest thing to ever happen to me in my life. Then I listened to the guild explain the story to the group of people she was leading. I still don't go to church, is still don't pray or look to sky's for some being to help me throughout my life. But I know Jesus was real. And I don't think you'll find a single Israeli the will deny his existence. They will only deny that he was the son of god. But he was a real person.

So how came you made a trip to Israel and walked the Via Dolorosa?

As a believer I would really like to do a pilgrimage to Israel one day.


Work.  I spent 3 months there last year. We went around isreal on our weekly day off.



Mmmfishtacos said:
Slimebeast said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
I'm not a religious man, but I do know the Jesus existed. Has anyone here been to Isreal? I have, I walked most of the path that Jesus would have walked charring the cross. There's a part in the old city where it's said he stumbled and reached his hand out and touched the wall to regain his balance. In that very spot on the wall is a near perfect outline of a hand eroded in the wall. I knew nothing about it till I passed and seen a group of people surrounding the area lead by a guide. As I approached the wall to see what the fuss was about I felt a surge of "power" ( really the only way I can describe it) rush over my body, and I felt "awake" like I've never been before in my life. It was probably the single strangest thing to ever happen to me in my life. Then I listened to the guild explain the story to the group of people she was leading. I still don't go to church, is still don't pray or look to sky's for some being to help me throughout my life. But I know Jesus was real. And I don't think you'll find a single Israeli the will deny his existence. They will only deny that he was the son of god. But he was a real person.

So how came you made a trip to Israel and walked the Via Dolorosa?

As a believer I would really like to do a pilgrimage to Israel one day.


Work.  I spent 3 months there last year. We went around isreal on our weekly day off.

Cool. Lucky you. What kind of work and why they send you to Israel?



dsgrue3 said:
allenmaher said:
dsgrue3 said:
HeavenlyWarrior said:
I believe in the flood, but not the way the bible describes

The is evidence for a local flood, so perhaps you aren't far off. 

Most rivers flood, the city of Calgary flooded this year, local floods are not a particularily noteworthy pheomina.  As and earth scientist i am qualified to say that the evidence presented for a biblical flood does not constitute credible evidence.  But lets walk through the math a little to illustrate the point:

A rough estimate of the water on earth 1,382,288,000 km^3  97.302% of which is already in the oceans  the vast majority remaining is in glaciers or ground water >98% of it, about 0.035% of the water on earth is in the atmosphere and has a mean residence time of about 2 weeks.

The size of the Earth is 510,072,000 km2 and the highest point on earth is 8,848m above sea level.  meaning it would take aproximately (and this is a ballpark figure that does not acount for the undulating land masses because loading a global dem and running a full calc would take a long time) 4,488,072,000 km3 to innundate everything.  If you take every drop of water that is not already in the ocean you have 37,288,000 km3. You can't take the water from the oceans or lakes for that matter since you would just have to fill them up again, so you have about 27% of that or 10,068,000 km3 of water including polar glaciers.  That is 0.000002228 % of what you would need.  Unless you are superheating the earth to hold more water it would take 13,241,940 years to happen through rain even if you could find the other 99.9999% of the required water.

So despite the fact that if you accept religeous texts as historical evidence this may be considered historical 'fact' (people wrote about it after all).  It quite simply did not happen.  It is not remotely in the realm of possibility.  So yes, it is far off the mark.

I'm not sure if you were really wanting to respond to me? I certainly don't believe in any global flood.

From what I read, it would have to rain 200 inches per hour for 20 days and nights to reach the dizzying amount of water necessary to cover Everest. 200 inches is more than it rains in a year on the wettest places on the planet. Of course, the water cycle is well-established and known to be an equivalency. When it rains, water isn't added to the planet, it simply recycles the water on the planet. 

So where did this water come from? Thin air, like the rest of the biblical absurdities. 

In any individual location, the most rain ever in 1 day (24 hours) is 1.85m the most ever in 1 hour was 305 mm (12 inches).  The most ever in a year in a location was 27m.  200 inches per hour is 16 times worse than the worst rainfall recorded.  Rain is not like a faucet, if first has to go up, then requires certain conditions to precipitate, it does have some pretty well defined limits not the least of which is the energy involved for evaporation.  I have seen some pretty horendous storms, those that droped half the recorded max, 200 inches is really unthinkable.

I was responding to the topic more than you, i saw a number of quotes in the thread of people believing in the flood, I know it came up earlier as well in a discussion of historical facts.  The consolation prize of "well maybe it was just a local flood so maybe your not far off" while well meaning is really a disservice to the individual you are consoling.  I know a concilliatory tone is good in a forum thread, but why humour the really crazy magical notions?  I think that is why I responded to your post, I knew from your response that you did not believe the notion, but then you offered a little "there there" pat on the head at the end.

In a historical debate there is lots of wiggle room, if (and it is a big if) you accept religeous texts as history, then the flood is historical 'fact' for instance.  A case can be made based on 2 lines from Josephus and 1 from Tacitus that come decades after the fact for a historical man named jesus (a common name at the time) who was a jewish messiah (there were many other messiahs at the time) and was crucified (also a common fate for rebels at the time).  But when people attempt to translate that into proof of the veracity of supernatural claims... and there are some doozies in the new testiment as well, then why soft pedal?



theprof00 said:
Egann said:
Yeah. Not buying it. Christian scholars have fragments from texts quite early in the first century, which is about as early as you can reasonably expect. They have enough early documents to definitively identify Gnostic gospels as written later, and that is not an easy task.

If you were trying to pick a religion to make a cult from in the first century, Judiasm would be the last thing any Roman aristocrat would have thought of. The people were obsessed with tradition, laws, and their own cultural history. Regardless of whether or not Christianity is true, for any Judiasm-based cult to take root as a religion would have required many well educated Jews who genuinely believed what they were saying.

I will buy, however, that it's an author making an outlandish claim in an attempt to sell his book.

Jesus is not in the Jewish texts.

And don't be too sure about what people will believe. The Jews didn't exactly accept the Christians, as shown in the fall of Alexandria.

Let's not forget that most Christian/catholic holidays also occur exactly on previous pagan holidays, and also let's not forget Jesus' similarity to previous religious leaders.

Buddha:

Both went to their temples at the age of twelve, where they are said to have astonished all with their wisdom. Both supposedly fasted in solitude for a long time: Buddha for forty–seven days and Jesus for forty. Both wandered to a fig tree at the conclusion of their fasts. Both were about the same age when they began their public ministry:

“When he [Buddha] went again to the garden he saw a monk who was calm, tranquil, self–possessed, serene, and dignified. The prince, determined to become such a monk, was led to make the great renunciation. At the time he was twenty–nine years of age… “Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age.” (Luke 3:23). Both were tempted by the “devil” at the beginning of their ministry: To Buddha, he said: “Go not forth to adopt a religious life but return to your kingdom, and in seven days you shall become emperor of the world, riding over the four continents.” To Jesus, he said: “All these [kingdoms of the world] I will give you, if you fall down and worship me” (Matthew 4:9). Buddha answered the “devil”: “Get you away from me.”

Jesus responded: “…begone, Satan!” (Matthew 4:10). Both strove to establish a kingdom of heaven on earth. According to the Somadeva (a Buddhist holy book), a Buddhist ascetic’s eye once offended him, so he plucked it out and cast it away. Jesus said: “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, and throw it away;.” (Matthew 5:29).

Krishna:
According to Bhagavata Purana some believe that Krishna was born without a sexual union, by “mental transmission” from the mind of Vasudeva into the womb of Devaki, his mother. Christ and Krishna were called both God and the Son of God. Both were sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man. Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity. Krishna’s adoptive human father was also a carpenter. A spirit or ghost was their actual father. Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent. Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star. Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna’s parents stayed in Mathura. Both Christ and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted. Both were identified as “the seed of the woman bruising the serpent’s head.” Jesus was called “the lion of the tribe of Judah.” Krishna was called “the lion of the tribe of Saki.” Both claimed: “I am the Resurrection.” Both were “without sin.” Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine. Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured “all manner of diseases.” Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead. Both selected disciples to spread his teachings. Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners. Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies. Both were crucified and both were resurrected.

Zarathustra:
Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.” He was baptized in a river. In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom. He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil. He began his ministry at age 30. Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.” He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man. He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse. He had a sacred cup or grail. He was slain. His religion had a eucharist. He was the “Word made flesh.” Zoroaster’s followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 AD and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.

Attis of Phrygia:
Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana. He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind. His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers. He was both the Divine Son and the Father. On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth. He descended into the underworld. After three days, Attis was resurrected.

Horus:
Born of a virgin, Isis. Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Birth heralded by the star Sirius, the morning star. Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (about DEC-21). In reality, he had no birth date; he was not a human. Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus’ mother “Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child.” An angel tells Jesus’ father to: “Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt.” Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. Age at baptism: 30. Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. Was crucifed, descended into Hell; resurrected after three days.

 

Interesting how most of these come from areas that the Roman's occupied.




Why are you so desperatly trying to discredit Christianty when its obvious you know very little of its actual history or its context? It sounds like all you know about christianity comes from r/atheism and youtube.

I mean, i figured out from my lurking days in off topic threads that you are a queer atheist (forgive me/correct me if im wrong) and therefor Christiannty is an epitome of everything that is bad in this world according to you, and that its very existance makes your blood boil, but there are more vaild criticizing points you can use to disprove it, not this desperate nonsense that has been debunked million times by now.

Anyway, to disprove your points about other deities, i have found several links, which you should check out

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/   It explains the whole ''Jesus was a rip off of other deites'' stuff

There are also a lot of videos that deal with this issue (mostly debunking the Zeitgeist movie, which pretty much started this whole nonsense)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7GgWOi4SQM  Historical (non biblical) evidence for Jesus, later parts in suggested videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFI6m6Icav4  This one is similar to the first link, but its in video. Again it deals with Zeitgeist, but it applies to your ppoints quite well too.

http://www.jonsorensen.net/2012/10/25/horus-manure-debunking-the-jesushorus-connection/  This one is specifically about Horus connections

http://jerome23.wordpress.com/2009/03/09/debunking-the-myth-that-jesus-never-existed-the-historical-sources-for-jesus-part-one/

http://explanationblog.wordpress.com/the-myth-of-jesus-a-refutation-of-the-zeitgeist/

 

TL;DR You are very very wrong 

Moderated,

-Mr Khan