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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Shin'en: If you can't make great looking games on Wii U, it's not the hardware's fault

g911turbo on 22 September 2013
ninjablade said:


i don't know if you read the tech thread on neogaf and beyond 3d but the most likely scenerio right now based on what we know is the gpu is  a very effeciante 160sp gpu, so of course they would be embarrassed, thats why they have very strict NDA incase anybody reveals the specs.

WRONG.  99 percent of the population doesnt even know what this means.  That being said, I don't think you do either ;)

At the end of the day, the Wii U is NOT as powerful as the Xbox One and ps4, no one is going to argue that of course... so why bother bringing attention to the fact that you have a system that from a purely on paper / specmanship standpoint isnt as powerful.? Same reason Apple doesnt focus on their specs.  End product is all that matters, and nintendo is trying to focus on that.



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fatslob-:O on 22 September 2013
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:

A crappy web browser could  still easily bring down the overall result.

What's more, in a game environment, Espresso is designed to work in tandem with the system's GPGPU, Latte. I doubt a generalized browser benchmark test leveraged Latte's contributions.

Read my response to forethought14.

I'll let him take that one, so we don't end up creating two pointlessly samey threads of conversation, haha.

You can do it now. I don't think he's going to reply. 

repost:

forethought14 said:
@fatslob 

Espresso is slow compared to PS360 if you make it perform floating point performance tasks. Its only method for doing these SIMD tasks is via paired singles, and at this clock, it likely doesn't match those two. Though there were benchmarks done by a member of Neogaf (blu) that proves that the architecture of Broadway isn't too bad at these tasks at all, just likely not at the same level as PS360. But it's a processor with strengths in places like GP or integer code, something the PS360 are just terrible at. Calling Espresso "slow" is not fair at all, since it's not designed to do much of those floating point tasks. Probably why Iwata encourages GPGPU, because that could alleviate Espresso.

You do realize that doing gpgpu is awkward on a VLIW architecture, right ? (What's more is that it's awkward for alot of developers.)

And what's more is that gameplay physics is best done on a cpu that depends on floating point power so does this mean that the WII U won't have alot of rigid body physics ?



DevilRising on 22 September 2013
FrancisNobleman said:
fatslob-:O said:
DevilRising said:
Sorry folks, but there is literally zero argument against this sentiment.

Look at Shadow of the Colossus. Weakest hardware then gen, yet one of the best looking games. Case closed.

Sorry but that position goes to chronicles of riddick escape from butcher bay. (Console wise ofcourse.)

I promise not to report you both if you never disrespect Okami again like that.

you're free to go... for now.

 

You both are really kind of missing the point. First off......Riddick? Really? Secondly, Okami has a gorgeous art stlye, and I love the game. But I'm sorry, Shadow of the Colossus I think is pretty much hands down the most graphically impressive PS2 game for my money. Beyond that, the point was that there were amazing looking games on the weakest hardware of that gen. And furthermore that Wii U will also undoubtedly have some of the best looking games of this new gen, regardless of how much more powerful the PS4 is.

So...................................yup.



curl-6 on 22 September 2013
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:

I'll let him take that one, so we don't end up creating two pointlessly samey threads of conversation, haha.

You can do it now. I don't think he's going to reply. 

repost:

forethought14 said:
@fatslob 

Espresso is slow compared to PS360 if you make it perform floating point performance tasks. Its only method for doing these SIMD tasks is via paired singles, and at this clock, it likely doesn't match those two. Though there were benchmarks done by a member of Neogaf (blu) that proves that the architecture of Broadway isn't too bad at these tasks at all, just likely not at the same level as PS360. But it's a processor with strengths in places like GP or integer code, something the PS360 are just terrible at. Calling Espresso "slow" is not fair at all, since it's not designed to do much of those floating point tasks. Probably why Iwata encourages GPGPU, because that could alleviate Espresso.

You do realize that doing gpgpu is awkward on a VLIW architecture, right ? (What's more is that it's awkward for alot of developers.)

And what's more is that gameplay physics is best done on a cpu that depends on floating point power so does this mean that the WII U won't have alot of rigid body physics ?

There's a lot about the hardware we don't know, but Shin'en did say, again in the OP, that being having a GPGPU lifts most of the limits on previous consoles. There's no question that devs who want to be able to spend no time tailoring a game to the hardware are going to find it difficult as its architecture is not in line with either its peers, as was the case for systems like the PS2, Wii, and PS3.

As for floating point heavy work, the GPGPU could play a part in assisting with these kind of operations. That's its purpose after all, to take on some of the tasks traditionally assigned to the CPU.



JoeTheBro on 22 September 2013
g911turbo said:
ninjablade said:

then people should stop bringing up X until it does look better then current gen, techincally there is no question GTA5 is doing way more just based of the reveal trailers.

Playing GTA5 now on Xbox 360.  Tons of blur, pop in, slow down etc.  Fantastic game still, but not even close to X.  IF that X footage holds up, even as is, no contest.

Same with The Last of Us. Great graphics.  But no doubt starting to show a little "long in the tooth".  Pop in, muddied motion, stutter, slow down.  A++ game though.  Graphics are good enough, but the current systems are starting to show some age.

Don't have a Wii U yet, but from what I've played of my brothers, and the footage shown of games like Mario Kart, X, etc. - no contest.  The Wii U is clearly benefiting from next generation improvements.  Two main ones right off the bat: A.  More RAM.  B.  Advanced instruction sets in the GPU.

 

Odd. I've been playing on PS3 and the only major blur/pop in occurs when going super fast. GTAV looks well above X. We don't know X's IQ stuff though, so if it ends up being 1080P 60fps, then it can technically beat GTA while looking worse.



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fatslob-:O on 22 September 2013
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:

I'll let him take that one, so we don't end up creating two pointlessly samey threads of conversation, haha.

You can do it now. I don't think he's going to reply. 

repost:

forethought14 said:
@fatslob 

Espresso is slow compared to PS360 if you make it perform floating point performance tasks. Its only method for doing these SIMD tasks is via paired singles, and at this clock, it likely doesn't match those two. Though there were benchmarks done by a member of Neogaf (blu) that proves that the architecture of Broadway isn't too bad at these tasks at all, just likely not at the same level as PS360. But it's a processor with strengths in places like GP or integer code, something the PS360 are just terrible at. Calling Espresso "slow" is not fair at all, since it's not designed to do much of those floating point tasks. Probably why Iwata encourages GPGPU, because that could alleviate Espresso.

You do realize that doing gpgpu is awkward on a VLIW architecture, right ? (What's more is that it's awkward for alot of developers.)

And what's more is that gameplay physics is best done on a cpu that depends on floating point power so does this mean that the WII U won't have alot of rigid body physics ?

There's a lot about the hardware we don't know, but Shin'en did say, again in the OP, that being having a GPGPU lifts most of the limits on previous consoles. There's no question that devs who want to be able to spend no time tailoring a game to the hardware are going to find it difficult as its architecture is not in line with either its peers, as was the case for systems like the PS2, Wii, and PS3.

As for floating point heavy work, the GPGPU could play a part in assisting with these kind of operations. That's its purpose after all, to take on some of the tasks traditionally assigned to the CPU.

You cannot use gpgpu for everything. There will be a time where a processor is more efficient at handling tasks such as sequential workloads. Plus I think a cpu's SIMD engine is important as it is the key to giving games more interactivity. Such as good ingame destruction physics which I have wished for a long time. 



fatslob-:O on 22 September 2013
DevilRising said:
FrancisNobleman said:
fatslob-:O said:
DevilRising said:
Sorry folks, but there is literally zero argument against this sentiment.

Look at Shadow of the Colossus. Weakest hardware then gen, yet one of the best looking games. Case closed.

Sorry but that position goes to chronicles of riddick escape from butcher bay. (Console wise ofcourse.)

I promise not to report you both if you never disrespect Okami again like that.

you're free to go... for now.

 

You both are really kind of missing the point. First off......Riddick? Really? Secondly, Okami has a gorgeous art stlye, and I love the game. But I'm sorry, Shadow of the Colossus I think is pretty much hands down the most graphically impressive PS2 game for my money. Beyond that, the point was that there were amazing looking games on the weakest hardware of that gen. And furthermore that Wii U will also undoubtedly have some of the best looking games of this new gen, regardless of how much more powerful the PS4 is.

So...................................yup.

Yeah you got a problem that riddick is more technically impressive than either okami or shadow of the colossus.



forethought14 on 22 September 2013

fatslob-:O said:

You can do it now. I don't think he's going to reply

You do realize that doing gpgpu is awkward on a VLIW architecture, right ? (What's more is that it's awkward for alot of developers.)

And what's more is that gameplay physics is best done on a cpu that depends on floating point power so does this mean that the WII U won't have alot of rigid body physics ?

BOLDED PART Dude, I'm not on here 24/7. I may be logged in, but that doesn't mean I'm browsing the forums. Be patient.

Developers have just not have needed to use it much on VLIW considering how it wasn't used extensively on the 360, and it's the opposite need for PS3, where the CPU there is used to aid the RSX (and that had a different architectrue). GPGPU has been used in the 360, though it wasn't needed too much for those tasks, since the CPU had enough float point performance for what they needed. With Wii U, it's likely much easier to use because the architecture is newer. If it's documented well enough ("well" being used here is relative, since I've heard of terrible documentation  before launch) then it shouldn't be a problem.

And yes, generally there are some things that are best done on the CPU, which I do agree that Nintendo should have at least implimented some more modern SIMD instructions, but don't count out GPGPU. It's not its savior, but it will certainly help, just as PS4/X1 will need to rely on it as well. 



curl-6 on 22 September 2013
fatslob-:O said:
DevilRising said:
FrancisNobleman said:

I promise not to report you both if you never disrespect Okami again like that.

you're free to go... for now.

 

You both are really kind of missing the point. First off......Riddick? Really? Secondly, Okami has a gorgeous art stlye, and I love the game. But I'm sorry, Shadow of the Colossus I think is pretty much hands down the most graphically impressive PS2 game for my money. Beyond that, the point was that there were amazing looking games on the weakest hardware of that gen. And furthermore that Wii U will also undoubtedly have some of the best looking games of this new gen, regardless of how much more powerful the PS4 is.

So...................................yup.

Yeah you got a problem that riddick is more technically impressive than either okami or shadow of the colossus.

And Rogue Squadron III is more technically impressive than Riddick. ;)



curl-6 on 22 September 2013
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:

There's a lot about the hardware we don't know, but Shin'en did say, again in the OP, that being having a GPGPU lifts most of the limits on previous consoles. There's no question that devs who want to be able to spend no time tailoring a game to the hardware are going to find it difficult as its architecture is not in line with either its peers, as was the case for systems like the PS2, Wii, and PS3.

As for floating point heavy work, the GPGPU could play a part in assisting with these kind of operations. That's its purpose after all, to take on some of the tasks traditionally assigned to the CPU.

You cannot use gpgpu for everything. There will be a time where a processor is more efficient at handling tasks such as sequential workloads. Plus I think a cpu's SIMD engine is important as it is the key to giving games more interactivity. Such as good ingame destruction physics which I have wished for a long time. 

It probably won't be better at everything, but the more modern GPU, more than twice as much RAM vs PS3/360, and more than three times as much as eDRAM as 360 should comfortably make it more powerful overall.