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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Forza dev: You can't talk power unless you're informed

-CraZed- on 13 September 2013
Vetteman94 said:
-CraZed- said:
Vetteman94 said:
-CraZed- said:
Vetteman94 said:
The only thing I got from this article is that people should leave the speculating about hardware and their difference to people who actually know what they are talking about. He never claims that he knows what those differences are if there is any. So everyone attacking him talking about 3rd party developers would know more, while correct, isnt the point of the article. He isnt comparing the PS4 to the Xbox One, he is just saying STFU unless you know what you are talking about and have knowledge on the situation.

Which lets face it, the vast majority of forum posters don't know a damn thing about it.

If he is indeed saying that then I really have a problem with that more than him trying to rhetorically trying to close the performance gap between the two systems. If he chooses to 'attack' forum dewellers, armchair engineers etc. who are discussing this very subject he is actually hurting the very console he is trying to defend. Those people actually CARE about the consoles enough to talk about that stuff and he risks alienating potential customers. Not to mention who the hell is he to tell people to STFU? If people want to engage in meaningless debate he certainly does not need to intervene.

Also for all the talk, he doesn't have inside information on the PS4s final specs so his comparing the two is as misinformed as all those know nothings.

I dont think he risks alienating any customers, he is just saying that people who are talking like they know what they are talking about are actually hurting the situation because they don't have all the information.  

And people can engage in meaningless debate all they want to, if you want to argue what console has the best games that is fine because it is subjective and perfect for meaningless debates.  But when they start arguing about technical information and specifications and start throwing around information as fact when it is far from fact they need to be put in place by people who know.  Which is what he is doing, and i applaud him for that cause people really do need to STFU about it unless they are directly working with theze systems and know their architecture and can actually formulate what differences there are if there are any worth talking about.

And he never compares the PS4 to the Xbox One, because he knows he doesnt know anything about the PS4. His anology was basically saying that the average person wouldnt be able to tell you what was faster between those 2 cars just by looking at the base value.   But the Engineers, Mechanics and builders of those vehicles would be able to tell you because they have the technical expertise to do so.  Everyone else is just barking to hear themselves and think they know what they are talking about.   

Meaningless debate is just that meaningless. So why would he feel the need to jump into the fray? I don't think people debating over the specs is any more worthy of being put 'in your place' than debating the color of the case. Its a debate and people are talking about them, which is good for BOTH consoles. Shutting that down will most certainly alienate some folks (most people who care enough won't care what he says anyways and keep talking) and is ultimately more harmful than just letting people discuss it without having to chime in with a 'STFU unless you are a dev insider.'

And, yes he absolutely has compared both of the consoles and on more than one occasion DIRECTLY compared perfomance specs:

"We have more memory bandwidth. 176gb/sec is peak on paper for GDDR5. Our peak on paper is 272gb/sec. (68gb/sec DDR3 + 204gb/sec on ESRAM). ESRAM can do read/write cycles simultaneously so I see this number mis-quoted.

We have at least 10% more CPU. Not only a faster processor, but a better audio chip also offloading CPU cycles.

Speaking of GPGPU - we have 3X the coherent bandwidth for GPGPU at 30gb/sec which significantly improves our ability for the CPU to efficiently read data generated by the GPU."

Mr. Ponello has simply done more harm than good (for his position) here.

Debating the color of the case wouldnt be possible as that information is already readily available, debating technical specifications that you dont understand is the issue here.  And that is a problem and yes someone who has technical knowledge on the situation should come in and tell people to shut up about it because they only make themselves look like fools.  Hence the ridiculously long thread this is with how you say "armchair engineers"?

I think you are in the wrong thread,  this is not about Penello, but a guy on the Forza development team.  He has made no reference to specs or anything or the PS4. I think you were looking to start something, like alot of other people, but it looks like you are both lost and confused.  And should probably heed the advice of the Forza dev and leave the technical talk to the people who know what they are talking about.

The point is he has no more 'knowledge' of the PS4 system architecture as anyone else outside Sony. And even if he did so what if folks want to debate what system is more powerful or has better hardware specs or looks better or has better exclusive games etc. etc. He has no authority to tell people to STFU just because he is a developer.

I certainly am trying to start something... a friendly debate. I see however from your disparaging remarks why you support Dan Greenwalt's position, you don't like others discussing things you think you are more informed about, perhaps? Maybe he is or you are, but that doesn't give you some type of authority to shut down debate. People want to talk about it let them. As I said before, basically calling people idiots to somehow bolster your position or in this case the console you develop for only serves to alienate potential buyers.

As an aside I did get mixed up a bit as I was reading the ENTIRE thread and Mr. Ponello's name has come up in the thread. Regardless, the point applies to both of these guys as they both have said some things that opened the door for more scrutiny of their remarks. ANd thank you, for the last bit of advise, although I never referenced any technical specs of either system outside quoting Mr. Ponello. Maybe I am not the only one confused here.



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DJEVOLVE on 13 September 2013

We will see when it launches, I don't think you will notice a difference.



Vetteman94 on 13 September 2013
-CraZed- said:
Vetteman94 said:

Debating the color of the case wouldnt be possible as that information is already readily available, debating technical specifications that you dont understand is the issue here.  And that is a problem and yes someone who has technical knowledge on the situation should come in and tell people to shut up about it because they only make themselves look like fools.  Hence the ridiculously long thread this is with how you say "armchair engineers"?

I think you are in the wrong thread,  this is not about Penello, but a guy on the Forza development team.  He has made no reference to specs or anything or the PS4. I think you were looking to start something, like alot of other people, but it looks like you are both lost and confused.  And should probably heed the advice of the Forza dev and leave the technical talk to the people who know what they are talking about.

The point is he has no more 'knowledge' of the PS4 system architecture as anyone else outside Sony. And even if he did so what if folks want to debate what system is more powerful or has better hardware specs or looks better or has better exclusive games etc. etc. He has no authority to tell people to STFU just because he is a developer.

I certainly am trying to start something... a friendly debate. I see however from your disparaging remarks why you support Dan Greenwalt's position, you don't like others discussing things you think you are more informed about, perhaps? Maybe he is or you are, but that doesn't give you some type of authority to shut down debate. People want to talk about it let them. As I said before, basically calling people idiots to somehow bolster your position or in this case the console you develop for only serves to alienate potential buyers.

As an aside I did get mixed up a bit as I was reading the ENTIRE thread and Mr. Ponello's name has come up in the thread. Regardless, the point applies to both of these guys as they both have said some things that opened the door for more scrutiny of their remarks. ANd thank you, for the last bit of advise, although I never referenced any technical specs of either system outside quoting Mr. Ponello. Maybe I am not the only one confused here.

There is no point because he never makes that assumption that he does know the PS4 architecture.  And if people want to argue what games look better or what system will be more powerful before the technical specifications are released is one thing.   But to use the specifications that have been released to come to your own conclusions without the proper knowledge on the subject is just plain ignorance.   And its being done in this and many other threads.

And you can try and start a friendly debate all you want,  but there is no debate to be had.  You can't debate facts, technical specification and their outputs are facts.  There is no debating that,  you can only debate opinions.   And there is no opinion to be had with technical specifications. And spreading misinformation does more to harm your potential buyers than what you claim they are doing.   Do you really think people outside of video game forums hear about this?  No, and the majority of the people he is calling idiots and telling them to STFU, aren't going to buy their system anyway,  and the ones who will buy their system agree that people shouldn't talk about shit they don't understand.  

What Penello has said can not be used to scrutinize what this guy said, if you want to scrutinize what he Penello said then go find that thread and bitch to your hearts content.   But this guy has said nothing wrong,  and in fact I appluad him to stand up and tell people to shut up about shit they don't understand.  And no you arent the only one confused here,  everyone else that had a similar agenda to you is included in that as well.  BTW, saying that you never brought up technical specs, except from the one time that I did bring up technical specs, isn't a very good denial. If it happened one time,  you can't say you never did it.



-CraZed- on 13 September 2013
Vetteman94 said:
-CraZed- said:
Vetteman94 said:

Debating the color of the case wouldnt be possible as that information is already readily available, debating technical specifications that you dont understand is the issue here.  And that is a problem and yes someone who has technical knowledge on the situation should come in and tell people to shut up about it because they only make themselves look like fools.  Hence the ridiculously long thread this is with how you say "armchair engineers"?

I think you are in the wrong thread,  this is not about Penello, but a guy on the Forza development team.  He has made no reference to specs or anything or the PS4. I think you were looking to start something, like alot of other people, but it looks like you are both lost and confused.  And should probably heed the advice of the Forza dev and leave the technical talk to the people who know what they are talking about.

The point is he has no more 'knowledge' of the PS4 system architecture as anyone else outside Sony. And even if he did so what if folks want to debate what system is more powerful or has better hardware specs or looks better or has better exclusive games etc. etc. He has no authority to tell people to STFU just because he is a developer.

I certainly am trying to start something... a friendly debate. I see however from your disparaging remarks why you support Dan Greenwalt's position, you don't like others discussing things you think you are more informed about, perhaps? Maybe he is or you are, but that doesn't give you some type of authority to shut down debate. People want to talk about it let them. As I said before, basically calling people idiots to somehow bolster your position or in this case the console you develop for only serves to alienate potential buyers.

As an aside I did get mixed up a bit as I was reading the ENTIRE thread and Mr. Ponello's name has come up in the thread. Regardless, the point applies to both of these guys as they both have said some things that opened the door for more scrutiny of their remarks. ANd thank you, for the last bit of advise, although I never referenced any technical specs of either system outside quoting Mr. Ponello. Maybe I am not the only one confused here.

There is no point because he never makes that assumption that he does know the PS4 architecture.  And if people want to argue what games look better or what system will be more powerful before the technical specifications are released is one thing.   But to use the specifications that have been released to come to your own conclusions without the proper knowledge on the subject is just plain ignorance.   And its being done in this and many other threads.

And you can try and start a friendly debate all you want,  but there is no debate to be had.  #1:You can't debate facts, technical specification and their outputs are facts.  There is no debating that,  you can only debate opinions.   And there is no opinion to be had with technical specifications. And spreading misinformation does more to harm your potential buyers than what you claim they are doing.   #2:Do you really think people outside of video game forums hear about this?  No, and the majority of the people he is calling idiots and telling them to STFU, aren't going to buy their system anyway,  and the ones who will buy their system agree that people shouldn't talk about shit they don't understand.  

#3:What Penello has said can not be used to scrutinize what this guy said, if you want to scrutinize what he Penello said then go find that thread and bitch to your hearts content.   But this guy has said nothing wrong,  and in fact I appluad him to stand up and tell people to shut up about shit they don't understand.  And no you arent the only one confused here,  everyone else that had a similar agenda to you is included in that as well.  BTW, saying that you never brought up technical specs, except from the one time that I did bring up technical specs, isn't a very good denial. If it happened one time,  you can't say you never did it.

#1 - What a silly statement. Each of these systems have specs that are debated all the time. So because the PS4 has more Shaders and ROPs and a dedicated GPU bus interface does that make it better or more powerful? Or, because the XB1 has lower latency DDR3 which helps with better or faster raytracing and procedural generation make it better or more powerful? Both of those specs are factual statements yet they are indeed debatable when we ar discussing which system is more powerful. Not to mention all the debates going over the actual archtiecture tweaks done by both SOny and MS and the claims of having extra 'secret sauce' etc. etc.

#2 - Then what is the point of him even bothering to say anything? Again kind of a silly argument don't you think?

#3 - Sigh... I never said there was anything "wrong" with him saying anything I said it is pointless to do and does nothing to help him or MS or the XB1 console's reception by the gaming community. You applaud him great, I don't I think he is attempting to head off talk about the consoles differences out of an inherent lack of confidence in the system he develops for. Yeah there is confusion abound mostly due to the lack of transparency of BOTH MS and SOny regarding the specifics regarding the hardware involved but that does not mean people can't discuss them. Also, I don't have to deny anything as my postings in this thread speak for themselves. My agenda is/was to talk about exactly what I posted but you are free to infer what you wish. Lastly, you sir seem to be doing the 'bitching' and I understand if you are not into debating on a friendly basis. I will then make this my last attempt at addressing your response to my initial posting. You are more than free to respond in kind though :)

 



Stinky on 13 September 2013

I think his point is that despite the common hardware in the two systems, the system designs makes any straight paper numbers analysis is apples & oranges.



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Vetteman94 on 14 September 2013
-CraZed- said:
Vetteman94 said:
-CraZed- said:
Vetteman94 said:

Debating the color of the case wouldnt be possible as that information is already readily available, debating technical specifications that you dont understand is the issue here.  And that is a problem and yes someone who has technical knowledge on the situation should come in and tell people to shut up about it because they only make themselves look like fools.  Hence the ridiculously long thread this is with how you say "armchair engineers"?

I think you are in the wrong thread,  this is not about Penello, but a guy on the Forza development team.  He has made no reference to specs or anything or the PS4. I think you were looking to start something, like alot of other people, but it looks like you are both lost and confused.  And should probably heed the advice of the Forza dev and leave the technical talk to the people who know what they are talking about.

The point is he has no more 'knowledge' of the PS4 system architecture as anyone else outside Sony. And even if he did so what if folks want to debate what system is more powerful or has better hardware specs or looks better or has better exclusive games etc. etc. He has no authority to tell people to STFU just because he is a developer.

I certainly am trying to start something... a friendly debate. I see however from your disparaging remarks why you support Dan Greenwalt's position, you don't like others discussing things you think you are more informed about, perhaps? Maybe he is or you are, but that doesn't give you some type of authority to shut down debate. People want to talk about it let them. As I said before, basically calling people idiots to somehow bolster your position or in this case the console you develop for only serves to alienate potential buyers.

As an aside I did get mixed up a bit as I was reading the ENTIRE thread and Mr. Ponello's name has come up in the thread. Regardless, the point applies to both of these guys as they both have said some things that opened the door for more scrutiny of their remarks. ANd thank you, for the last bit of advise, although I never referenced any technical specs of either system outside quoting Mr. Ponello. Maybe I am not the only one confused here.

There is no point because he never makes that assumption that he does know the PS4 architecture.  And if people want to argue what games look better or what system will be more powerful before the technical specifications are released is one thing.   But to use the specifications that have been released to come to your own conclusions without the proper knowledge on the subject is just plain ignorance.   And its being done in this and many other threads.

And you can try and start a friendly debate all you want,  but there is no debate to be had.  #1:You can't debate facts, technical specification and their outputs are facts.  There is no debating that,  you can only debate opinions.   And there is no opinion to be had with technical specifications. And spreading misinformation does more to harm your potential buyers than what you claim they are doing.   #2:Do you really think people outside of video game forums hear about this?  No, and the majority of the people he is calling idiots and telling them to STFU, aren't going to buy their system anyway,  and the ones who will buy their system agree that people shouldn't talk about shit they don't understand.  

#3:What Penello has said can not be used to scrutinize what this guy said, if you want to scrutinize what he Penello said then go find that thread and bitch to your hearts content.   But this guy has said nothing wrong,  and in fact I appluad him to stand up and tell people to shut up about shit they don't understand.  And no you arent the only one confused here,  everyone else that had a similar agenda to you is included in that as well.  BTW, saying that you never brought up technical specs, except from the one time that I did bring up technical specs, isn't a very good denial. If it happened one time,  you can't say you never did it.

#1 - What a silly statement. Each of these systems have specs that are debated all the time. So because the PS4 has more Shaders and ROPs and a dedicated GPU bus interface does that make it better or more powerful? Or, because the XB1 has lower latency DDR3 which helps with better or faster raytracing and procedural generation make it better or more powerful? Both of those specs are factual statements yet they are indeed debatable when we ar discussing which system is more powerful. Not to mention all the debates going over the actual archtiecture tweaks done by both SOny and MS and the claims of having extra 'secret sauce' etc. etc.

#2 - Then what is the point of him even bothering to say anything? Again kind of a silly argument don't you think?

#3 - Sigh... I never said there was anything "wrong" with him saying anything I said it is pointless to do and does nothing to help him or MS or the XB1 console's reception by the gaming community. You applaud him great, I don't I think he is attempting to head off talk about the consoles differences out of an inherent lack of confidence in the system he develops for. Yeah there is confusion abound mostly due to the lack of transparency of BOTH MS and SOny regarding the specifics regarding the hardware involved but that does not mean people can't discuss them. Also, I don't have to deny anything as my postings in this thread speak for themselves. My agenda is/was to talk about exactly what I posted but you are free to infer what you wish. Lastly, you sir seem to be doing the 'bitching' and I understand if you are not into debating on a friendly basis. I will then make this my last attempt at addressing your response to my initial posting. You are more than free to respond in kind though :)

 


No

To tell people to stop talking about things they dont understand, it was about time soneone said it.

Its one thing to speculate, which is what you are actually talking about.  Guessing what is or is not going to be the final specs for the console.  But people are arguing specifications that dont exist and are making up conclusions based on this information. And they are using what little information is known and trying to guess what the consoles output is.   And the only thing that does is make the people doing it look stupid, cause they dont know what they are talking about.

You said you didnt bring up tech specifications, but you did bring them up.  Thats denial.  Your posts speak for themselves and they said hey look at these specs i brought up for no reason.  

And I love to debate when there is debate to be had,  but there isnt one here.  I would love to hear what you think we can debate about in this thread?   



EyeAmTJ on 14 September 2013

fanboys at it as usual i see