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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Penello specifies why X1vsPS4 performance difference is overstated

Machiavellian said:

So the first link was from an Xbox developers that says Sony has the better specs.  Here is a quote from that link (basically the article if you read it)

"“The facts are on paper, the PS4 has better specs, and the most that you can debate is by how much,” said the refreshingly candid employee. “What I can tell you is that I have played Forza Motorsport 5,Killer Instinct, and Ryse on the Xbox One, and they look as good as the games that I play on a high-end PC. Ryse reminded me of Darksiders II.”"

The second link is from a developer who is not making a X1 game which invalidate your bolded point.  You bolded points says developers who has worked on both X1 and PS4 games.  The developer in the second link is stating specs not first hand experience which is very clear from the article.

The third one is from another developer that pretty much validated Albert point.  Here is a quote from the article

"We asked Avalanche’s chief technical officer Linus Blomberg how the two consoles compare. “It’s difficult to say, as it’s still early days when it comes to drivers,” he told us. “With each new driver release, performance increases dramatically in some areas. The PlayStation 4 environment is definitely more mature currently, so Microsoft has some catching up to do. But I’m not too concerned about that as they traditionally have been very good in that area. The specs on paper would favour the PS4 over the Xbox One in terms of raw power, but there are many other factors involved so we’ll just have to wait and see a bit longer before making that judgment.”

If anything, the only thing you did was provide more proof of what Albert is stating instead of anything else.

Another person who struggles to comprehend a deviation of the OP.

This has nothing to do with Penello dude. This is simply about whether or not developers have cited a performance advantage, which they have repeatedly. I mean, fuck, I can grab 100 more sources if you want or maybe you will actually do some research yourself.



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Mmmfishtacos said:
Machiavellian said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
Adinnieken said:
Ashadian said:

"The CPU contained within the PS4 is running stock speeds, 1.6ghz compared to Microsofts 1.75 after an upclock - 150mhz does not make up for the different in number of CUs, and (aptly ignored by Albert) the difference in ROP units - hence why even with the 150mhz upclock, the Xbox One is still way behind in terms of raw power - To see just how little difference 150mhz makes, go into your bios and bump your clock speed up to be 150mhz faster, you will see framerates climb barely 2fps at best - most modern CPUs clock to at least 400mhz higher than stock as an average, with some people bumping that to over 900mhz.

But seriously, before you try and tell me im wrong, he is comparing 1.6 to 1.75 and claiming its 10% faster, asside from being factually wrong (10% would be 1.76ghz), it also compares the cpus on the most basic of levels, which is a stupid thing to do, even more so given that theyre APUS - compare a 2ghz celeron to a 2ghz pentium to see why.

Last but not least adding up the ddr3 and esram speeds to get a higher number is universally seen as a retarded pr stunt by those with half a brain because theoretical peaks for different ram types DO NOT COMBINE - just like if you put two 3ghz xeons in a server, it does NOT mean that the server is now running at 6ghz, its running at 3ghz with additional cores - adding ddr3 and the tiny space allotted by esram does not work, even for "on paper" results - you cannot fill the 8gb of ddr3 with the esram fast enough without the esram being bottlednecked, esram could not be used for a large majority of game resources, where as GDDR5 can be used for just about anything at the cost of slightly higher latency."

Actually, he doesn't ignore it.  He addressed it.  Each CU gets a 6% speed increase, not simply the entire GPU with the frequency increase.  So while there are fewer CUs those CUs operate faster than the PS4's.  When 12 CUs are operating at 6% greater speed than the PS4, that equates into a 72% speed improvement.

Early in that thread (not that post) he states near 10%.  He has also stated before greater than 9%.  If we want to get specific it's 9.375%    No, he also talks on a deeper level, about how the the Xbox One's CPU also has a 30GB/s transfer rate between the CPU and memory,   A 50% speed improvement over the PS4.

You missed the part where he also specified that the eSRAM's speed was 204GB/s.  That still happens to be 16% faster than the GDDR5 memory in the PS4.  Don't assume my argument is that 32MB is the same as 8GB, but I wonder what memory speed is necessary in order for a modern GPU to adequately process a 1920x1080 image without bottlenecking or taking a performance hit.  The eSRAM is used both as a buffer for the DDR memory, as well as a cache to temporarily hold data that's needed quickly.

I think you missed the part where he got called out on all the being fud. And he got shreading for this bit of miss info too.

Let me ask you something.  How do you know he got shredded.  Without having the knowledge if the people responding actually know what they are talking about you can easily make that mistake.  After reading a few comments its clear a lot of them do not know what they are talking about and most cannot even make a simple google search to be sure what they are saying is correct.  This is the problem with the net is that people regurgitate information from other people who do not know what they are talking about and you get number to junk.

Because a lot of them do know what they are talking about. And even a quick google search will tell you that the ps4 transfers 20 GB/s down the onion buss. So that alone slames his 50 percent gain. 

Thats exactly what I am talking about.  A lot of them do not know what they are talking about.  This is a pretty big misconception of the forum.  Most times I see comments that are no better than your common fan site.

Yes, 20 down for PS4 compared to 30 for the X1.  You do the math and tell me what you get!!



dsgrue3 said:
Machiavellian said:

So the first link was from an Xbox developers that says Sony has the better specs.  Here is a quote from that link (basically the article if you read it)

"“The facts are on paper, the PS4 has better specs, and the most that you can debate is by how much,” said the refreshingly candid employee. “What I can tell you is that I have played Forza Motorsport 5,Killer Instinct, and Ryse on the Xbox One, and they look as good as the games that I play on a high-end PC. Ryse reminded me of Darksiders II.”"

The second link is from a developer who is not making a X1 game which invalidate your bolded point.  You bolded points says developers who has worked on both X1 and PS4 games.  The developer in the second link is stating specs not first hand experience which is very clear from the article.

The third one is from another developer that pretty much validated Albert point.  Here is a quote from the article

"We asked Avalanche’s chief technical officer Linus Blomberg how the two consoles compare. “It’s difficult to say, as it’s still early days when it comes to drivers,” he told us. “With each new driver release, performance increases dramatically in some areas. The PlayStation 4 environment is definitely more mature currently, so Microsoft has some catching up to do. But I’m not too concerned about that as they traditionally have been very good in that area. The specs on paper would favour the PS4 over the Xbox One in terms of raw power, but there are many other factors involved so we’ll just have to wait and see a bit longer before making that judgment.”

If anything, the only thing you did was provide more proof of what Albert is stating instead of anything else.

Another person who struggles to comprehend a deviation of the OP.

This has nothing to do with Penello dude. This is simply about whether or not developers have cited a performance advantage, which they have repeatedly. I mean, fuck, I can grab 100 more sources if you want or maybe you will actually do some research yourself.

You can say what you want but you need to prove your argument not try slight of hand to make it seem like no one understand the subject.  My quotes are Directly compared to the bolded part you suggested is the subject.  Moving the goal post after people demostrate that your point was flawed is a weak tactic.  Either stay on point with the argument you made or just drop it.



Couple of things.

1. The guy doesnt know the full Sony specs and how it compares to the XboxOne so really shouldnt try and compare the two.
2. I can see why he has replied, but he should just make a simple reply of he doesn't believe that the two consoles are that far apart, otherwise it just becomes a right old mess.
3. If both consoles were available to test and there was no other evidence, then I might be inclined to believe him more because of his suggestion that he has gone to his top tech guy... but as he hasnt got a PS4.. how can he know.

I can understand he is in a difficult position... but at the end of it all the games will speak for themselves. If they hadnt done such a rubbish PR job, perhaps pre-orders wouldnt be so bad and they wouldnt feel so much pressure to try and defend their box, rather than just sell it on it's merits.

If the guy is wrong, and his tech guy is wrong, then his credibility will be lost. The only problem i see is that this is coming from the company that stated their console will be 40x more powerful because of the cloud... so I am going to wait and see.



Making an indie game : Dead of Day!

Dallinor said:
Legend11 said:


So you're saying that PS4 is better at dance or fitness games for example?  What about quirky indie games that take advantage of features the Xbox One has that PS4 either can't do as well or can't do at all?  Apparently one of the best HD games shown so far is Titanfall and that features graphics that while good aren't pushing the system by any means yet it's completely owning the PS4 lineup in terms of awards and media attention.

How does a game "own" a lineup? Taking a look at google and youtube, Titanfall has far less views and hits than Infamous Second Son for example. I don't know if a few more glowing reviews on gaming websites or blogs equates to greater mainstream attention. Which is obviously a factor, right?

I'm sure the game will get a massive marketing budget and garner huge interest later on, but you're jumping the gun a bit now. I'd say far less people actually know about the game right now than some of the launch titles appearing on either system. 

 

Game Critics Best of E3 2013 awards:

Best of Show
Titanfall

Best Original Game
Titanfall

Best Console Game
Titanfall

Best Action Game
Titanfall

Best Online Multiplayer
Titanfall

Best PC Game
Titanfall

it would have won even more except it didn't qualify for the other categories like RPG, racer, handheld game, etc.



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Adinnieken said:
Ashadian said:

"The CPU contained within the PS4 is running stock speeds, 1.6ghz compared to Microsofts 1.75 after an upclock - 150mhz does not make up for the different in number of CUs, and (aptly ignored by Albert) the difference in ROP units - hence why even with the 150mhz upclock, the Xbox One is still way behind in terms of raw power - To see just how little difference 150mhz makes, go into your bios and bump your clock speed up to be 150mhz faster, you will see framerates climb barely 2fps at best - most modern CPUs clock to at least 400mhz higher than stock as an average, with some people bumping that to over 900mhz.

But seriously, before you try and tell me im wrong, he is comparing 1.6 to 1.75 and claiming its 10% faster, asside from being factually wrong (10% would be 1.76ghz), it also compares the cpus on the most basic of levels, which is a stupid thing to do, even more so given that theyre APUS - compare a 2ghz celeron to a 2ghz pentium to see why.

Last but not least adding up the ddr3 and esram speeds to get a higher number is universally seen as a retarded pr stunt by those with half a brain because theoretical peaks for different ram types DO NOT COMBINE - just like if you put two 3ghz xeons in a server, it does NOT mean that the server is now running at 6ghz, its running at 3ghz with additional cores - adding ddr3 and the tiny space allotted by esram does not work, even for "on paper" results - you cannot fill the 8gb of ddr3 with the esram fast enough without the esram being bottlednecked, esram could not be used for a large majority of game resources, where as GDDR5 can be used for just about anything at the cost of slightly higher latency."

Actually, he doesn't ignore it.  He addressed it.  Each CU gets a 6% speed increase, not simply the entire GPU with the frequency increase.  So while there are fewer CUs those CUs operate faster than the PS4's.  When 12 CUs are operating at 6% greater speed than the PS4, that equates into a 72% speed improvement.

Early in that thread (not that post) he states near 10%.  He has also stated before greater than 9%.  If we want to get specific it's 9.375%    No, he also talks on a deeper level, about how the the Xbox One's CPU also has a 30GB/s transfer rate between the CPU and memory,   A 50% speed improvement over the PS4.

You missed the part where he also specified that the eSRAM's speed was 204GB/s.  That still happens to be 16% faster than the GDDR5 memory in the PS4.  Don't assume my argument is that 32MB is the same as 8GB, but I wonder what memory speed is necessary in order for a modern GPU to adequately process a 1920x1080 image without bottlenecking or taking a performance hit.  The eSRAM is used both as a buffer for the DDR memory, as well as a cache to temporarily hold data that's needed quickly.


One doesnt have to know ANYTHING about computers to see how dumb that is.  

lets give each CU an arbitrary value of 100.  so 12 cu's * 100 = 1200

When you increase each CU ,  its 6% of 100,  so each cu would be 106.   106 * 12 = 1272

each CU doesnt gain 6% of 1200.. 



I am Torgo, I take care of the place while the master is away.

"Hes the clown that makes the dark side fun.. Torgo!"

Ha.. i won my bet, but i wasnt around to gloat because im on a better forum!  See ya guys on Viz

Machiavellian said:
dsgrue3 said:
Machiavellian said:

"“The facts are on paper, the PS4 has better specs..."

"...The PlayStation 4 environment is definitely more mature currently, so Microsoft has some catching up to do ... The specs on paper would favour the PS4 over the Xbox One in terms of raw power, but there are many other factors involved so we’ll just have to wait and see a bit longer before making that judgment.”

Another person who struggles to comprehend a deviation of the OP.

This has nothing to do with Penello dude. This is simply about whether or not developers have cited a performance advantage, which they have repeatedly. I mean, fuck, I can grab 100 more sources if you want or maybe you will actually do some research yourself.

You can say what you want but you need to prove your argument not try slight of hand to make it seem like no one understand the subject.  My quotes are Directly compared to the bolded part you suggested is the subject.  Moving the goal post after people demostrate that your point was flawed is a weak tactic.  Either stay on point with the argument you made or just drop it.

I posted 2 sources which cited a PS4 advantage that fit the criterion (you can omit the 2nd source). Unless you have any evidence to the contrary I have fullfilled the obligations of my argument. 

But here's another, just for fun:

Adrian Chmielarz, who used to work at the studio People Can Fly (Bulletstorm)

 



walsufnir said:
Blood_Tears said:
This guys reeks of desperation..


No need to get personal. Just let him post what he wants. If you want to argue with his points, do so, but stop just attacking.


I can "attack" Penello anytime I want. Who the hell are you to tell me what I can't say on a public forum about a thread of Penello's "public statments"?  Deal with it..



Madword said:
Couple of things.

1. The guy doesnt know the full Sony specs and how it compares to the XboxOne so really shouldnt try and compare the two.
2. I can see why he has replied, but he should just make a simple reply of he doesn't believe that the two consoles are that far apart, otherwise it just becomes a right old mess.
3. If both consoles were available to test and there was no other evidence, then I might be inclined to believe him more because of his suggestion that he has gone to his top tech guy... but as he hasnt got a PS4.. how can he know.

I can understand he is in a difficult position... but at the end of it all the games will speak for themselves. If they hadnt done such a rubbish PR job, perhaps pre-orders wouldnt be so bad and they wouldnt feel so much pressure to try and defend their box, rather than just sell it on it's merits.

If the guy is wrong, and his tech guy is wrong, then his credibility will be lost. The only problem i see is that this is coming from the company that stated their console will be 40x more powerful because of the cloud... so I am going to wait and see.

Well no one knows Sony full specs but for what they have released.  So why can he not compare what was released compared to what MS has released.  People have been doing this since June.  Hell, this is the reason we have this 50% performance being touted around for months.

You cannot just make a simple comment like that.  Either try to back it up or shut up.  Personally not sure why he even wasted his time.  Who knows maybe he likes to go into fights where everyone has swords and he is carrying a pocket knife.

I am sure MS and Sony has a unit from each company sitting some where in a lab.

When MS can tell their investor that they are shipping and consumers are buying out their supply, I am sure they are doing fine.  Do not fall for fanboy wars where its a big deal if one company is selling more preorders than another.  this is a much longer race then what will happen in 1 to to years and I believe the consoles that release this November will be much different 2 years from now.

Lets get the quotes right, MS stated that having the cloud will be like having 4 X1 in one box.  Whos to say if that will ever happen but they do have the platform, infrastructure and code base to make it work.



If the 50% more power for the ps4 was real I would think Sony would have said it and trolled about it already, I guess the two consoles are equal in power.