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Forums - Gaming - How can Sony (home) consoles sell more on average than Nintendo (home) consoles if Sony steals Nintendo's ideas?

bananaking21 on 30 August 2013
think-man said:
PS all stars is more inspired by SSB.

Thats like saying all shooters are a rip off of doom or what ever guy thought it up first.

all FPS games are exactly the same anyways so it doesnt matter.



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J_Allard on 30 August 2013
kowenicki said:
why do you think there should be a correlation between originality/innovation and sales?

This. Sales don't mean anything.



JWeinCom on 30 August 2013
think-man said:
PS all stars is more inspired by SSB.

Thats like saying all shooters are a rip off of doom or what ever guy thought it up first.

Depends on how similar the two products are.  For example, you have Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Kung Fu Panda.  Both are based upon anthropomorphic animals doing martial arts, but Kung Fu Panda doesn't have much else in common.  You can't point to a lot of specific elements and say "hey that's a lot like Ninja Turtles".  So not a ripoff.  On the other hand Chop Kick Panda is most definitely a rip off of Kung Fu Panda because it takes the plot and main character pretty much directly from Kung Fu Panda.

In PSASBR there are a lot of very specific elements that can be traced directly to Smash Bros.  It's not the same general concept, there are a lot of specific things that are taken.



JWeinCom on 30 August 2013
bananaking21 said:
JWeinCom said:


1. Not exactly... I worked retail when they were pushing the move in 2011.  They had a representative who worked with Sony, JUST pushing Move stuff.  He was actually a phenomenal salesman.  He almost made me forget the move was awful.  Assuming he made about 15 dollars an hour, and he worked five days a week 6 hours a day, then you figure he made about 450 a week.  Despite how good he was, we didn't sell much move stuff.  Partially because we didn't receive much, and partially because noone really wanted it.  So, lets say Sony sold 15 moves a week through our store and made 20 dollars off each.  They made $300 off hardware, but they spent $450 in advertising.

So, even if they sold each move controller for less than it cost to manufacture, that doesn't mean they recovered the money they spend for R&D, software development, advertising, vendor kickbacks, and so on so forth.  Margin (the difference between sale price and manufacturing cost) is different than profit (how much of that money goes to your bottom line after paying employees, doing ads, and so forth).  That's not to mention more useful stuff they could have been doing with the time and effort.

2.  Point to some meaningful implementation of the move since Wonderbook (flop) or Sorcery (flop).  Right now, Sony is not giving the device any meaningful support.  Support was almost nonexistant past 2011, so I call that a short life.  Maybe someone in Sony has some vague fantasy of using the Move for the PS4.  Maybe someone in the company is too stubborn to admit it didn't work.  But, until I actually see meaningful support, then I don't believe it's going to happen.  As far as I know, the only move games for the PS4 will be Just Dance 2014 and the pack in Play Room.  My instincts tell me that PSMove support will be like Remote Play between the PSP and PS3.  Something Sony talks about that never really comes to fruition.  At any rate, the PS Move will be completely dead by 2015. (IMO of course).


1- The 3DS is selling rather horribly where i live, infact, i never ever seen anybody buy it, have it or play games on it anywhere. most stores dont have it and nobody even bothers to market it. moral of the story? you cant determine the success of an object based on your local store. and really the counter of your entire point is, good thing it sold 15 million then. 

2- just because you havent heard much of the support that sony gives to PS move doesnt mean it doesnt excist. here is a full list of games http://www.squidoo.com/ps3-move-game-list 

now does sony support PS move as much as they can? certainly not, i am not saying they do. but you are saying they dont at all, which simply isnt true. 

 

PS move bombed, thats the post i commented on saying it wasnt true, and still no evidence what so ever was given to support that false claim. in contrast i have many evidence that it didnt. i didnt say it was as successful as the Wii controller or kinect, i didnt say it was this huge success. but it certainly didnt "bomb"

1.  You completely missed the point of the story.  The point of the story was not about how the PSMove was selling at one store, the point was that selling the hardware for more than it costs to produce does not mean they made money once you factor in other costs.  So "they sold 15 million" does not mean "they made money".  Before they can make actual profit they have to pay the developers of move software, pay Kevin Butler for his ads, and so on so forth.  

Microsoft spent 500 million on the Kinect.  So if they sold 20 million Kinects at 20 dollars a pop profit, then they didn't make any money.  Of course that's theoretical, but saying they sold 15 million means nothing in the absense of other relevant information.

2.  Ok.  Now go through that list and tell me what meaningful support is coming out for the system in the last year.  Of that list, I can only see three Sony move titles, two of which flopped and one that I don't have sales data for.  Sony supports the Move in the same way EA supported the Wii U.  If the move was still profitable, I'd imagine Sony would... you know... make some games for it...



bananaking21 on 30 August 2013
JWeinCom said:
bananaking21 said:
JWeinCom said:


1. Not exactly... I worked retail when they were pushing the move in 2011.  They had a representative who worked with Sony, JUST pushing Move stuff.  He was actually a phenomenal salesman.  He almost made me forget the move was awful.  Assuming he made about 15 dollars an hour, and he worked five days a week 6 hours a day, then you figure he made about 450 a week.  Despite how good he was, we didn't sell much move stuff.  Partially because we didn't receive much, and partially because noone really wanted it.  So, lets say Sony sold 15 moves a week through our store and made 20 dollars off each.  They made $300 off hardware, but they spent $450 in advertising.

So, even if they sold each move controller for less than it cost to manufacture, that doesn't mean they recovered the money they spend for R&D, software development, advertising, vendor kickbacks, and so on so forth.  Margin (the difference between sale price and manufacturing cost) is different than profit (how much of that money goes to your bottom line after paying employees, doing ads, and so forth).  That's not to mention more useful stuff they could have been doing with the time and effort.

2.  Point to some meaningful implementation of the move since Wonderbook (flop) or Sorcery (flop).  Right now, Sony is not giving the device any meaningful support.  Support was almost nonexistant past 2011, so I call that a short life.  Maybe someone in Sony has some vague fantasy of using the Move for the PS4.  Maybe someone in the company is too stubborn to admit it didn't work.  But, until I actually see meaningful support, then I don't believe it's going to happen.  As far as I know, the only move games for the PS4 will be Just Dance 2014 and the pack in Play Room.  My instincts tell me that PSMove support will be like Remote Play between the PSP and PS3.  Something Sony talks about that never really comes to fruition.  At any rate, the PS Move will be completely dead by 2015. (IMO of course).


1- The 3DS is selling rather horribly where i live, infact, i never ever seen anybody buy it, have it or play games on it anywhere. most stores dont have it and nobody even bothers to market it. moral of the story? you cant determine the success of an object based on your local store. and really the counter of your entire point is, good thing it sold 15 million then. 

2- just because you havent heard much of the support that sony gives to PS move doesnt mean it doesnt excist. here is a full list of games http://www.squidoo.com/ps3-move-game-list 

now does sony support PS move as much as they can? certainly not, i am not saying they do. but you are saying they dont at all, which simply isnt true. 

 

PS move bombed, thats the post i commented on saying it wasnt true, and still no evidence what so ever was given to support that false claim. in contrast i have many evidence that it didnt. i didnt say it was as successful as the Wii controller or kinect, i didnt say it was this huge success. but it certainly didnt "bomb"

1.  You completely missed the point of the story.  The point of the story was not about how the PSMove was selling at one store, the point was that selling the hardware for more than it costs to produce does not mean they made money once you factor in other costs.  So "they sold 15 million" does not mean "they made money".  Before they can make actual profit they have to pay the developers of move software, pay Kevin Butler for his ads, and so on so forth.  

Microsoft spent 500 million on the Kinect.  So if they sold 20 million Kinects at 20 dollars a pop profit, then they didn't make any money.  Of course that's theoretical, but saying they sold 15 million means nothing in the absense of other relevant information.

2.  Ok.  Now go through that list and tell me what meaningful support is coming out for the system in the last year.  Of that list, I can only see three Sony move titles, two of which flopped and one that I don't have sales data for.  Sony supports the Move in the same way EA supported the Wii U.  If the move was still profitable, I'd imagine Sony would... you know... make some games for it...

1- and there is simply no way to know if they made money or bombed. however the 15 million units does suggest it sold enough to. and it does elimiate the concept of the move "bombing"

2- what meaningfull support did the kinect get? a star wars game and some dance games? yet it sold very well and it was a success. the dance and fitness games, LBP karting, wonderbook, MLB the show and bioshock infinite are enough to move the PS move it seems. it wont sell hunder of millions but so far that support moved moved 15 million units and the PS move is being supported by the PS4. 

you are agruing the level of success of the move, which isnt my point. my point is, the move didnt "bomb". can you provide any evidence that it did? 



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JWeinCom on 30 August 2013
bananaking21 said:
JWeinCom said:
 

1.  You completely missed the point of the story.  The point of the story was not about how the PSMove was selling at one store, the point was that selling the hardware for more than it costs to produce does not mean they made money once you factor in other costs.  So "they sold 15 million" does not mean "they made money".  Before they can make actual profit they have to pay the developers of move software, pay Kevin Butler for his ads, and so on so forth.  

Microsoft spent 500 million on the Kinect.  So if they sold 20 million Kinects at 20 dollars a pop profit, then they didn't make any money.  Of course that's theoretical, but saying they sold 15 million means nothing in the absense of other relevant information.

2.  Ok.  Now go through that list and tell me what meaningful support is coming out for the system in the last year.  Of that list, I can only see three Sony move titles, two of which flopped and one that I don't have sales data for.  Sony supports the Move in the same way EA supported the Wii U.  If the move was still profitable, I'd imagine Sony would... you know... make some games for it...

1- and there is simply no way to know if they made money or bombed. however the 15 million units does suggest it sold enough to. and it does elimiate the concept of the move "bombing"

2- what meaningfull support did the kinect get? a star wars game and some dance games? yet it sold very well and it was a success. the dance and fitness games, LBP karting, wonderbook, MLB the show and bioshock infinite are enough to move the PS move it seems. it wont sell hunder of millions but so far that support moved moved 15 million units and the PS move is being supported by the PS4. 

you are agruing the level of success of the move, which isnt my point. my point is, the move didnt "bomb". can you provide any evidence that it did? 

1.  I think the evidence I see in terms of support indicates to me that it did not make money. Edit: Or at least not nearly as much as Sony thought or enough to make it a worthwhile investment.

2.  The Kinect had a lot more support than the Move did and its games were much more successful.  The Kinect had something like 6 million sellers that I know of.  Maybe a few more.  That's not including bundled games.  Just Dance for instance sold about 3-4 times more than it did on the PS3.  I don't think the Kinect was a raging success, but it was certainly better off than the Move.

Bomb is kind of a subjective opinion.  I have no way to prove whether it bombed or not, especially cause I can't saw what exactly bombed is. All I'm saying is that the evidence to me does not indicate that the Move was successful.  If we agree on that, then I guess we're in agreement.

pezus said:

Now he added "He almost made me forget the move was awful". Excuse me, but WHAT? You may not like the games, but the device is great and also superior to the Wiimote.

Hardware is only as good as its software.  Suppose a company made a system 5000X more powerful than the PS4, but it only played Superman 64.  That system would suck. 



Zero999 on 30 August 2013
pezus said:
Zero999 said:

ps1 and ps2 had an almost monopoly of the third party franchises that made snes a success.

But why? Couldn't Nintendo have done the same?

mono means one. two can't have a monopoly at the same time.

sony released first and atracted thirds.



kljesta64 on 30 August 2013

wiimove tech was better then the wiimote but games ...srry.



Tsubasa Ozora

Keiner kann ihn bremsen, keiner macht ihm was vor. Immer der richtige Schuss, immer zur richtigen Zeit. Superfussball, Fairer Fussball. Er ist unser Torschützenkönig und Held.

Viper1 on 30 August 2013
bigd615 said:
 If they didn't only Sony would have disks instead of cartridges (I assume they were 1st),

Technically, Sony was 9th.  Several consoles before the PS used optical media such as the Sega Genesis/Megadrive CD add on, Sega Saturn, 3DO, Neo Geo CD, Amiga CD, CD-i, TurboGrafix/PC Engine CD, etc...

pezus said:
Viper1 said:

So you make an illogical and obviously baiting thread based on 5-10 people's illogical notions?

Don't take dumb and then make it dumber.  It's just bad form.

There is nothing illogical about it, as I just explained. I have personally seen about 5-10 people like this, but there might be a lot more out there in hiding waiting for this thread to explain their reasoning. Now you would do well to explain why this is a "baiting" thread any more than other threads that ask a specific section of the forums a question.

It's illogical because sales are not a direct correlation of innovation nor copying innovation.  You know this.  High sales are the end result of many disparate quanta.  You're baiting and goading people with this thread based on the illogical notions of a few people with a premise you damn good and well will be controversial due to the underlying subject matter of innovation copying.

This is almost callow in its tranparency.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

J_Allard on 30 August 2013

I guess this thread puts an end to any notion that MS copied Sony with the Kinect vs Eyetoy.