If they collided, universes, we'd notice milleniums in advance when our gravitational systems go haywire - I'd hope a few thousands years is enough time for people to make mends and figure a solution lol

senseinobaka said: I need to apoligize because I wasnt clear in my post. I didnt cite historic evidence because I tought God had already put it in governments heart to destroy religion, I cited the historic evidence to refute your claim that it will be a bloodthirsty act when he does. In recent history, governments that decided to get rid of religion didnt do it in a terrible and bloodthirsty way. There is no evidence when God incites governments to destroy religion on a worldwide scale that it would be an event that would lead to billions dead. It would be sudden and shocking, but that doesnt equate billions dying. And also I'll quote what a passage you quoted and what you said about: Revelation: It Grand CLimax at Hand: "God’s Word gives the happy assurance that only wicked opposers of God will be destroyed—by forces under God’s control." Your comment: God is definately going to be doing some killing. Specifically killing all who do not worship him. You make a logical leap that the bible doesnt support. You feel that A person that doesnt worship god = a wicked opposer of god. And it's just not true. As I said, people selectively killed by Jehovah is extremely rare. This judgment belongs to God. Now Revelation's pronuoncements are really against the trifecta: The Harlot (false religion), the beast (political) and the dragon (satan). You could argue that supporters of either can be wicked opposers, such as the clergy in the case of the harlot. But that's not something I can say; that judgment is for god to make, not me. So unless god tells me that an individual will be destroyed I can safely view the individual as a survivor of Armeggedon. Revelation describes the events leading up to Armaggedon as follows: God having government destroy the harlot. The beast or nations and governments, will bring about a great tribulation. One that no man can survive. (Assumed by many who study revelation as a war or nuclear holocaust, but as witnesses we dont speculate, we just know they will do something that will be able to cause our extinction) Armageddon: God steps in and, in what can be considered a war (albiet quick and onesided), destroys the beast or governments that are causing the great tribulation, and saves billions of people. This is also linked to Daniel 2:44, where it prophecised that God's Kingdom will crush all the govenments of man.

I know that witnesses don't believe the tribulation is already happening, it is to come. But What you said just completely contradicts what you said later in the post.

There is no evidence when God incites governments to destroy religion on a worldwide scale (great tribulation) that it would be an event that would lead to billions dead. It would be sudden and shocking, but that doesnt equate billions dying.

The beast or nations and governments, will bring about a great tribulation. One that no man can survive. (Assumed by many who study revelation as a war or nuclear holocaust, but as witnesses we dont speculate, we just know they will do something that will be able to cause our extinction)

Armageddon: God steps in and, in what can be considered a war (albiet quick and onesided), destroys the beast or governments that are causing the great tribulation, and saves billions of people.

 

So the great Tribulation will be a government sponsored (but god induced) peaceful purge of all of religion (not bloodthirsty at all) that will be so terrible that man won't survive it unless god dutifully intervenes in armageddon killing those very few evil people that are peacefully getting rid of religion in such a way that would kill all of mankind. Also, if you read any of your yearbooks, the common theme is that governments take a very violent hands on approach to trying to exterminate religion. They're filled with one anecdote after another of witnesses being beaten, tortured, threatened, thrown in prisons, tar and feathered, ect ect ect.

 

As for who god will kill, your literature makes it very clear that anyone that belongs to any religion other than Jehovah's witnesses, and anyone who supports any man made government is an enemy of god. Who will god kill in armageddon? His enemies. You can sugar coat it if you want, but that's exactly what your literature says. Above I quoted "the end of false religion is near", which at the end warns readers that unless they want to share the same fate as babylon the great, they must flee to the true religion.

To qoute a 96 watchtower under the article "why worldly religion will end"

We are living in the final part of “the last days,” and as true Christians we are struggling to survive these “critical times hard to deal with.” (2 Timothy 3:1-5) True Christians are temporary residents in Satan’s world, which truly reflects his corrupt personality as a murderer, a liar, and a slanderer. (John 8:44; 1 Peter 2:11, 12; Revelation 12:10) We are surrounded by violence, deceit, fraud, corruption, and crass immorality. Principles have gone by the board. Hedonism and expediency are the bywords. And in many cases the clergy condone moral corruption by diluting the Bible’s clear condemnation of homosexuality, fornication, and adultery. Thus the question is, Do you support and condone false worship, or do you actively participate in true worship?—Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:26, 27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

Now is a time of sifting. Hence, there is all the more reason to distinguish between false worship and true.

skip to the end

Jesus said that if a blind man guides a blind man, both fall into the pit. (Matthew 15:14) Do you want to come to an end with Babylon the Great? Or do you want to walk in straight paths with your eyes open and enjoy Jehovah’s blessing?

Your literature denounces everyone that is part of false religion, not just the clergy. You can fall back on the ol' "well, we aren't really the judges, it's not for us to decide, it's really up to god", but apparently it's up to god and the watchtower tract society, who time and time again denounce everyone that isn't a Jehovah's witness. Or rather everyone who isn't "actively participating in true worship".

The universe will probably be ripped apart via Dark Energy before it could collide into another one.

Either that or dark energy will die out, and the big crunch theory will come in to play.

Well assuming you subscribe to the dark energy theory.

Final-Fan said: Final-Fan said: senseinobaka said: Final-Fan said: Question: At the end of the day, are there going to be people alive who are not Jehovah's Witnesses? You say vagabond is wrong to say "no", but your following explanation does not verify this point. I'm not sure what you mean by "at the end of the day" so I'm gonna assume: 1)If you mean after Armegeddon, the answer is yes. You will have survivors of armegeddon and then you will have people being resurrected both righteous and unrighteous. The vast majority of those resurrected will not be Jehovah's Witnesses. 2)If you mean after everyone is resurrected and gods kingdom is over the entire earth. Then the answer is in a way no. Those who are resurrected or those who survive armegeddon that decide to follow satan will recieve second death. So that leaves only worshipers of God in god's kingdom. [irrelevant portion excised to conserve space] [irrelevant portion excised for space, and by the way I do appreciate that you took the time to answer both possible interpretations of my question.] But back on topic: It's follow God or follow Satan? No middle ground? (Not surprising but just making sure.) It's understandable that this got lost in the shuffle, considering the size and number of recent posts, but I would like a concrete answer. Based on other posts I'm certain the answer is "yes" but I would like confirmation.

Presuming the answer is in fact yes, then only those who follow God will ultimately survive.
And the only way (according to you) to successfully follow God is to be a Jehovah's Witness, correct? 

But (and here's the interesting part) according to you, everyone, good or bad, no matter what their religion is/was, will get resurrected once, aside from Adam/Eve/Sodom/Gomorrah and maybe a few others.  And after that everyone will choose between God and Satan and go to Paradise or final destruction accordingly. 

So according to what you said in the above post, we all can do and believe whatever we want and it won't matter as long as we make the right choice in the End Times after all the dead are resurrected to make the same choice.  Am I right? 

CrashMan said: On a seperate note, since this has turned in to a lot of philosophical debate, and most of the points went unanswered, I like to think about some other possibilites. There is the theory along side the The Big Bang, that states the Universe is starting to, or will collapse back in to how it was before the big bang. If this is true, theoretically this could have happened an infinte amount of time and there have been infinite universes with infinite civilizations. And isn't it also possible that in the infinites of space , multiple big bangs could occur, with multiple expansions and collapses happening quadrillions of miles beyond the limits of our universe's mass radius.

Let's not forget about the "Big Brain theory" .  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/science/15brain.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1&8dpc&oref=slogin

 

 

Final-Fan said: Final-Fan said: Final-Fan said: senseinobaka said: Final-Fan said: Question: At the end of the day, are there going to be people alive who are not Jehovah's Witnesses? You say vagabond is wrong to say "no", but your following explanation does not verify this point. I'm not sure what you mean by "at the end of the day" so I'm gonna assume: 1)If you mean after Armegeddon, the answer is yes. You will have survivors of armegeddon and then you will have people being resurrected both righteous and unrighteous. The vast majority of those resurrected will not be Jehovah's Witnesses. 2)If you mean after everyone is resurrected and gods kingdom is over the entire earth. Then the answer is in a way no. Those who are resurrected or those who survive armegeddon that decide to follow satan will recieve second death. So that leaves only worshipers of God in god's kingdom. [irrelevant portion excised to conserve space] [irrelevant portion excised for space, and by the way I do appreciate that you took the time to answer both possible interpretations of my question.] But back on topic: It's follow God or follow Satan? No middle ground? (Not surprising but just making sure.) It's understandable that this got lost in the shuffle, considering the size and number of recent posts, but I would like a concrete answer. Based on other posts I'm certain the answer is "yes" but I would like confirmation. Presuming the answer is in fact yes, then only those who follow God will ultimately survive. And the only way (according to you) to successfully follow God is to be a Jehovah's Witness, correct? But (and here's the interesting part) according to you, everyone, good or bad, no matter what their religion is/was, will get resurrected once, aside from Adam/Eve/Sodom/Gomorrah and maybe a few others. And after that everyone will choose between God and Satan and go to Paradise or final destruction accordingly. So according to what you said in the above post, we all can do and believe whatever we want and it won't matter as long as we make the right choice in the End Times after all the dead are resurrected to make the same choice. Am I right?

Before I answer this I would like to ask you a question. If you are right, how do you personally feel about it?

 

And to answer your question. You are right. The bible says many times that Jehovah is a loving and forgiving God. It also mentions that he extends undesreved kindness. Also, there is a lengthy history of Jehovah granting multiple chances. Isreal got alot of second chances. Nineveh is a city that God had pronounced judgement on, like that of Sodom and Gomorah, but they got a second chance. Simply put if we as imperfect humans decide not to worship god, god promises a resurrection of good and bad for us to have a second chance. This second chance is also on a playing field where humans would no longer be shackled to adamic sin.

Now, I realize your next logical question would be; "Then why worship god now?" And, frankly there are many reasons. But the only reason I'll mention right now is the most important one. We worship god now out of love for god. There is another thing, I'd like to mention. This has a definate 'God is not an idiot' clause. The bible mentions God's ability to read and discern the hearts of men. Don't think for a minute that someone scheming to use gods forgiveness would succeed.

 

@Vagabond

Just a quick point. The destruction of the harlot is not the great tribulation. These are two very seperate events. Also the destruction of the harlot isnt what causes the great tribulation.

Aside from that, I believe we have exhausted meaningful debate and drifted into spinning circles. Our views are very different. You feel that at the time of Armageddon 99.9% of people would be wickedly opposing Jehovah, while I believe that far less would be opposing Jehovah. You can claim that I 'sugar coat' the topic, but at the same time you 'bitter coat' it. I realize that Revelation doesnt say much about how many would survive, but it does refer to them as a great crowd that no man was able to number. Anyway, when it comes to argument I follow a rule. When there are two extreme veiws that are both well researched then I feel that the real answer lies somewhere in the middle.

I never did get a chance to discuss your feelings on evolution and the animal kingdom. But again, I think we have a different fundamental premise. I dont see wickedness or cruelty in the way nature works. I see balance, adaptation, and the ability to survive. Predators in the wild don't treat their prey cruelly, as in, they dont over hunt, hunt for sport, or hunt for poaching.

Also, I dont get into evolution debates because they never seem to be productive or even helpful. I've come across three different feelings about the topic.

1)Fundamental Creationism: Earth and life created in 6 24-hour days

2)Big Bang/Evolution is responsible for everything with no design. There is alot of faith in random chance amoung those that believe this way. The Awake!(monthly magazine published by Jehovah's Witnesses) mentioned a study in 1997 of US scientist that showed 6/10 believe that this is the way it happened, no creator. The vast majority of scientist teach this idea.

3)Everything has intellegent design behind it. Evolution, Big Bang, Biology, Geology, Meterology, everything. The same study I mentioned earlier showed that 4/10 scientist believe this idea. I may not be a scientist, but I love science and am very educated, especially on human biology, and I cannot be convinced that there is not design.

When it comes down to it a logical debate on Evolution throws away the Fundamental idea and centers around Faith in Chance vs. Faith in Design. And both are perfectly logical conclusions.

What do you constitute as opposing Jehovah? Do you disagree with the Watchtower society that states all who are part of any religion outside of Jehovah's witnesses are opposing god by supporting satan's wicked religious system?

Nothing I've ever read in your publications, or have heard at any of your meetings state that the harlot being destroyed and the great tribulation are two different things. Anything I can find about them, put them as one act. Babylon the great being destroyed in the great tribulation. If you can point me to a reference that separates the two distinctly, I'd be interested in seeing it.

As for nature, it's a matter of creating suffering vs not creating suffering. Animals don't act cruelly, the design imposed on them is cruel. You can't deny that all life in the natural world is constantly suffering. It's starving, it's in pain, it lives in fear, and then dies. Why create suffering if you don't have to?

I can accept that you think their is intelligence in biology but do you believe that evolution is factual science? Seeing as how it is the fundemental basis of biology which you say you are well educated in. To deny evolution is to deny almost all of modern biology.

Before I clicked on the link to this thread the number of replies was 666!!

If that's not a sign to stop this thread I don't now what it. VGC is about...videogames. Sure we can discuss some other things, but Religion is too serious and this one thread has become monstrous.

AS for me *clears throat* I'm an agnostic. I also believe there is life on other planets because I find it statistically impossible for the whole universe to only contain one planet in the billions of galaxies that preserves life.

I feel good that I correctly understand your position. It doesn't make me any more or less likely to turn to your religion or any religion.

For instance, although everyone gets one last chance to "choose God", I get the impression that Jehovah's Witnesses have some pretty strict ideas on what constitutes "choosing God" and if you do any of it wrong then BAM! Whoops I guess you actually chose Satan.

More importantly though I am just not convinced by any of the pro-God arguments. If I was going to be Christian at all I'd go back to the Catholicism I came from, since they've become pretty tolerant (AFAIK) of differing opinions on the nonessential points.

As for your study, aside from the obvious questionability of a study of the popularity of Intelligent Design as measured by a religious organization I would ask: if only 60% of scientists believe that the Universe developed without any intelligent design, why do the "vast majority" teach that that is the case? Why not (roughly) 60%? (I freely admit that the last is merely a rhetorical question as the 40% figure for ID-supporting scientists is completely bogus. "The Discovery Institute's A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism petition begun in 2001 has been signed by "over 700 scientists" as of August 20, 2006. A four day A Scientific Support for Darwinism petition gained 7733 signatories from scientists opposing ID." "The unequivocal consensus in the scientific community is that intelligent design is not science but pseudoscience.")

Hyperion said: Before I clicked on the link to this thread the number of replies was 666!! If that's not a sign to stop this thread I don't now what it. VGC is about...videogames. Sure we can discuss some other things, but Religion is too serious and this one thread has become monstrous. AS for me *clears throat* I'm an agnostic. I also believe there is life on other planets because I find it statistically impossible for the whole universe to only contain one planet in the billions of galaxies that preserves life.

I saw the same thing, but keep in mind that this is still nothing more than a little diversion. The Brawl update thread got to -- what, OVER 5000!? I agree on the extraterrestrial life, and even extraterrestiral intelligence. The real question is if there is any close enough that we'll ever meet it.