Read properly, don't insert your own interpretation of it. I specifically said that if god PROVES BEYOND YOUR ABILITY TO DENY, then you've lost your free will.

I have free will because I CAN deny anything, even my own existence, even God, but I choose not to. However if he PROVED BEYOND MY ABILITY TO DENY, not simply proof that is enough that I wouldn't try to deny it, but BEYOND MY ABILITY TO DENY, then I've lost free will.

The ability to prove beyond the ability to deny implies the absence of free will. Free will implies the ability to deny anything. Your premise presupposes the conclusion.

 Edit:

And may I add that you have just proved that if god is all powerful there is no such thing as free will.

Do you really know you exist?  Couldn't you just as eaisly be a computer simulation?  Some character in a computer simulated world programmed for research or entertainment?  Plenty of people actually do believe this.  That it's highly likely they don't really exist and are a computer simulation.

The theory being that eventually we would become smart enough to create computers that can re-create human brains, and after that entire worlds, and even then universes.

If this did happen, there would be a crapload of such computers, and only one "real" reality.  Therefore mathematically, scientifically and logically there is very high chance we are all really just fake computer programs living inside a computer and that we don't really exist. 

Even if I was a computer simulation, I would still exist.  Any thing that is self aware has to exist.

the bible to me is just a story, nothing more nothing less.

Now if god created everything and everyone in it, then I say that our god is the universe, an entity with no intelligence and no power, just it's mere existence leads into our existence.

In my opinion we should only praise the universe as our god, not these fictitious gods in books that are written by men, but hey some people love those stories in the bible just like some like the Harry potter books, kudos to reading I say.

I find it comical that the religious people here claim that the atheists will be stubborn and not see their side of the story, yet more often than not they're the ones who won't give them (atheists) credit. Ironic, no?

^ The worst part is they won't listen to logic and facts, athiests will listen to 'proof' shown by the bible, and show how it is faulty.

But I guess a desire to analyze things before making a decision is an afront...

 The mutations happen at random, evolution does not. The most adaptive animal does not survive randomly or by chance. He survives because he is the most adaptive. Again the 'quick' gene does not survive by chance or randomly, it survives because it is quick enough to escape from a predator. 

Evolution takes all the random mutations and gets rid of the 'weak' mutations, not by chance but because they are to 'weak' to survive.

If you do not understand that, you do not understand evolution. Evolution is not random or based on chance. 

Let me run with this idea. We are a simulation based off a real world. (ie: The Matrix...whatever) There is a creator, a programmer who acheived the ability to control brain function and thought. We are all stuck in a machine... praising this creator, a false god.. since in this reality, the programmer could also be in a machine and have their own pre-proposed "God." It could go on indefinately. So how can it be so certain that Earth's God is THE God? We have no proof to state otherwise and we have no proof to support it, except a book written many thousands of years ago and translated by humans.

Every play telephone? It's where you whisper something in one person's ear, let them whisper what they heard in someone else's ear and it continues around the room. Invariably what comes out the other end is all messed up and incorrect, but everyone in that line believes it is the true meaning because that is what they were told, even though they interpreted it in their own way. This is what the Bible is to me. A game of telephone. I believe it started out as a moral story to guide a village. To give them rules to live by and stories to draw experience from. It was used, not just to control, but as a guide to the type of community some wise man once wanted. He never imagined that some of those children who heard the tale would pass it on to their children or carry it to the next town and tell the stories, but they did. Through the many campfire stories of this tale it became twisted by people into a religion. Eventually someone wrote it down and called it the Bible.

So now, I have this belief. Is it right, or is it wrong? Many here would say I'm wrong, but do you have proof? Do I have proof that it was that way? I can say, this wise man only wanted the best for his village. He wanted people to love each other and maintain civility. Anyone wishing to not accept this ruling was free to go to the next town and not be loved. Of course, they took this message with them, probably twisted it and told it the way that they seemed fit. Does this sound familiar? Sure. I just took all your beliefs of God and placated them onto an old wise man just looking to be appreciated and loved. Somehow being the creator of the story that many people inherited, turned into him being the creator... of the human race.

Some of you would think this makes me a child, or a mental deficient... but does it really? Is it hard to accept that matter has existed for millenia? If there was a creator of this material, is it so hard to accept that that person is no longer with us? I give some of you credit for coming up with the idea that you will be loved after death for leading a good life. It keeps people in line. But is it the truth?

Acumen seems to have changed what he means by God proving 'beyond your ability to deny' that he exists.

At first, he indicated that this simply meant to fulfil Andir's requat for a personal audience. Which would not place any limit on Andir's free will.

He later seems to change his meaning, so that, by definition, it serves to over-ride free will. As if God intentionally overides Andir's free will, forcing him to believe, as a way of proving his existence.

That was clearly not what Andir was originally talking about.



The problem with having an all knowing, all powerful creator; and then believing that he can condemn his creation, is more interesting anyway.

When God started the big bang and sent matter spiraling through the universe, he knew it would lead to every sin you are going to commit. When he reaches down to create you soul at the point of conception, he knows whether he's creating somone he will later damn or bless.

Seems a little unfair, eh?