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Forums - General - Argument from nonbelief

 

Do you agree with it?

Yes 17 34.00%
 
No 33 66.00%
 
Total:50

furthermore i don't have to prove that god doesn't exist for me to be an agnostic. This is a stupid argument used so many times. I can't just say something exists and you are wrong unless you can prove it doesn't exist. It's very difficult to prove the non-existence of something.



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Why say "God is love" when we have a perfectly good word for love. Love is love.



ArnoldRimmer said:

Well, they could for example read the catholic encyclica, published by Pope Benedict in 2006, that's even states so in its simple title: "Deus Caritas Est" (="God is Love").

Just pointing out that in a way, even the most official church claims so. ;)

My personal impression is that you're rather only looking for interpretations of "God" that you can somehow "logically" disprove. You consider your own interpretation of a mystical word as the only "reasonable/meaningful" interpretation.

But even if you'd succeed, you'd still have only disproved your own, unreasonable understanding of that word (which seems based on a rather letter-by-letter understanding of selected christian texts).

You do realize plenty of people don't have access to that text through no fault of their own? Thus that does nothing to counter my point that many people don't have the opportunity to learn that love is God.

As for claiming that God is just a synonym for love, conscience, an indescribable "presence", or whatever you want to call it; It's meaningless because we already have adequate words in existence. There's no reason to use another word, especially one which has much greater implications and connotations - it just makes things unnecessarily complicated. It's unreasonable because almost every interpretation of God assigns characteristics far beyond merely "love" or "conscience", such as omnipotence, consciousness, physically creating the universe, etc. 

I consider interpretations of God meaningful when they at least describe an entity which isn't already described using another ordinary word. If someone said God is a pencil, I would call that interpretation meaningless. If someone said God is another word for "presence", I would call that interpretation meaningless. If someone said God is an omnipotence, omniscient, omnibeloved, eternal, etc. presence, then I would call that a meaningful interpretation; since not only is it not already accurately described by another word, but this interpretation of God implies that God is something we should actually pay attention to and discuss.

If God was just another word for "presence" or some other word, then why should we treat it any differently than the already existing word?



ListerOfSmeg said:
LilChicken22 said:

I think this is one of the best arguments: If God is perfect, then how are the law of physics imperfect? Examples: development of diseases like cancer and autoimmune diseases, evolution of pathogens and getting resistant to antibiotics, disasters that are occurring in nature. Those kind of things occur because of 'flaws' or mechanisms that are compromised by another law that are made up by God. When he made them, he knew these kind of things would happen. Since he's perfect, he should've taken the time to come up with a perfect universe. Now this all sounds like bullcrap because it takes law of physics to CREATE something. Also, if God is HAPPY, or ANGRY with you (like many religious people told me because I'm a non-believer), then he's dependent of his own laws which means he's not perfect or the creator of ALL. Simple put: God doesn't exist.

Wow.... I have not read a more uninformed post from anyone on religion like that in a long time. Which one are you even referencing because of those I know, your knowledge doesnt fit any of them.

Sorry but you will always fail at trying to comprehend what a being with vastly more knowledge than you by pretending you know more or are better suited to judge them.

A caveman might think we are stupid for building roads and they make no sense. You are doing the same thing.You are looking at it as if you have all the pieces and know all the answers but that isnt the case.

A race created to never know pain, death, suffering would not appreciate a world where those things are not present.

I am assuming you are refering to Christianity with your post. I would suggest actually looking into it before posting your opinion again. An opinion based off lack  of knowledge is not a valid opinion at all. I'm not even Christian but I did my research on it at least.

"

If we all knew there was indeed a An omnipotent God who genuinely wanted to have a relationship with everyone would have given everyone reasonable and fair means to find him. "

God, we would all follow him.  Silly argument there. What reason would God have to want everyone to follow him? He is just after the best. Not the worst. You dont see humans true side by standing over them. You are trying to out think a being that knows and understands you better than you do.

It always amuses me when people try to play God and act like because they cant understand why someone far older and wiser then them did what they did.

In your whole comment I can't seem to find sources or proof that disprove my points. And why do you state Im trying to be God, or that I'm referring to only Christians and that I call them stupid. You're just copy-pasting standard arguments and say it to people like me who dare to come up with facts.

Based on what we know (I'm doing a scientific study and learn new stuff every day that disproves the theory of God or question it) it is far from reasonable that something like God exists. People use the concept of God to give themself hope and to be motivated to be a good person, but even this is proven by science to be a mechanism in the brain based on hormones and neurotransmitters. ''God'' can be found in the brain and is evolutionary proven to be a good survivalstrategy in the past, go look it up on Google or w/e. If  you can't deal with facts like this, please go away. People who aren't aware of facts that are necessary for your view of life aren't allowed to say others what they have to do or what to believe, like what has been done to me.

And I'm not trying to be God, I'm just coming with facts we as a species have discovered over the past 2000 years. I actually can't stand the 'we don't know everything-argument' because we are actually USING laws of physics and science WE KNOW (that disprove the existance of God) in society for the progress of humanity. Yes, we USE evolution,physics and hormones to produce products like medicines/medical treatments, airplanes/computers and food. You're right when stating we don't know everything about the universe, we don't know a LOT and some things we will never know because our intelligence is compromised by evolution that is again compromised by other non-influenceable factors like physics. But we actually do know enough to make statements about something like God. Until we actually meet people who don't think God is a wizard in the sky and is a consciousness being that can be ''''''angry'''''' with you, but think 'God' is a source of pure energy based on theories that actually DO correlate with important facts we KNOW and USE, to make a universe possible, then we can discuss in a more logical manner.

Also, everyone has a different view of what God actually is. Ask two people in the same family with the same religion what God actually is and they will give different answers. There is only one truth.



Science is not about proving things to be 100% correct. It is about disproving things, thus the existence on the null hypothesis. All these laws and such, many of them are only theories. That's what they are. Theories. Because they cannot be proven to work in 100% of all cases, as many situations cannot be tested by us. Some of our "laws"aren't even apply directly to the real world, many of them such as the laws of motion have absurd prerequisites (in a perfect airless, frictionless environment, etc)
Anyway, science is about disproving things in attempt to make the reality clearer to see or predict. The existence of a God is something science will never be able to disprove; it is too abstract and cannot be tested.



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Burning Typhoon said:
 

There's a reason I said I wouldn't go into detail.  I don't want to get into it.  You are a human, so, it's pretty arrogant of you to say god is the human race.

About consciousness, if I were to say we all shared the same consciousness, most people would get confused and make the assumption that I said we share the same brain (which obviously isn't true at all).  So many times have I gotten the responce, "well, if we have the same consciousness, what did I have for breakfast." or something similar to that.

And, if I go into more and more detail, it would just lead to more and more confusion.  But, it's supposed to be like that.  That way, people have the freedom to believe what they want.  If the truth was as clear as day, there would be no point in believeing anything different.  It's that way on purpose.

You need conscious parents to spawn children, and the further back in time you go, the fewer beings you will have.  As far as the physical aspect, it works the same way.  You can look out into space to see things are spreading apart, but, at one point, the atoms that make us up were once part of the same object.

I think playing the role of God is boring, so we were supposed to forget that detail in the first place.  Who wants to play a game they can't possibly lose, yet, never ends?  So, no I have no problem with people's beliefs.  Just don't try and push them onto me.

So, about god being the human race..... maybe you're thinking a bit too small, there...  Uh oh, better stop myself here...


You are confusing me completely on what you are trying to say here. I said the human race is the closest to the concept of God that we have. Not that it is God. But, arrogant is thinking we are special enough that he would come to us and give us this book and tell us what to do and what would happen if we dont, aswell as revealing the existance of 2 planes like heaven and hell. Arrogant is thinking we are special because we were chosen. My "special" is one we are creating ourselves with hard work. Theres nothing arrogant about it.

Also i think that you are confusing the atoms that make us come from the same object like they were all one. That isnt quite right. It was the one fenomemon that created and is still creating them. You can look at it like a rift between matter and anti-matter that matter is winning so new matter is continuously beeing produced and let into the universe. Its not all come from the same object. The big bang isnt an object and it not all coming from one single object. Its a continuous battle of elements that continuously "bleeds" matter out.

The matter that composes me and the matter that composes you didnt come from the same object, though it came through to be matter through the same event that is still happening. Not at the same time, but at different times.



Jay520 said:
happydolphin said:

I appreciate you wanting me to give my own answer, but the truth is I fall short. Luckily the bible has answers that I've learned from. But I'll indulge:

I know for a fact that I have been healed of a skin disease when I was younger. Whether I believed in God or not, whether I was raised to believe him or not, something inside me cried out when I was in the worst of pain, and this force came to help me. I now recognize that force as God, but as a child it was almost instinctive to cry out to a higher power (I was helpless and medicine and mum were not helping), and I got a response.

I also know of people of muslim origin who have had very vivid dreams regarding salvation, one of whom is my very close friend. I have heard that people in the middle-east where christianity is heavily persecuted also see similar dreams.

God witnesses thanks to his own creation. I am personally a witness of that. Whenever I see or enjoy nature, I recognize God's fingerprints. You may say it's due to my upbringing, but to me it speaks louder than words. When I smelled the sweet smell of grass today, I felt like God had taste (this isn't a joke).

And then, lastly, there is the story of Jesus itself, which few have not heard. But to those who haven't, my belief is that though circumstance may never have allowed them to witness it, I truly believe that if God does exist, he is truly just and will find a way in for them. But ultimately the way to heaven is narrow, and the way to perdition is wide (that's from the bible), so even with them, only a small portion will make it through.


So your answer is "God will find a way". Okay then.

Yup.



I don't follow the argument, I get stuck on "Some human persons are non-resistantly unaware that God exists". What does that exactly mean?



I'm not sure on it because who is god anyway? People claim to believe in it but the whole religion could of easily been made up like Mormonism was. And if god really does exist, i think it could really only be one thing, the Earth. God is something that is really in all of our heads and probably don't exist for real.



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Jay520 said:

I'll keep it short and post a short version of the argument from Wikipedia:

1. If no perfectly loving God exists, then God does not exist.
2. If a perfectly loving God exists, then there is a God who is always open to personal relationship with each human person.
3. If there is a God who is always open to personal relationship with each human person, then there no human person is ever non-resistantly unaware that God exists.
4. If a perfectly loving God exists, then no human person is ever non-resistantly unaware that God exists (from 2 and 3).
5. Some human persons are non-resistantly unaware that God exists.
6. No perfectly loving God exists (from 4 and 5).
7. God does not exist (from 1 and 6).

What do you think of this argument? Good or bad? 

I guess you could say that God doesn't have to be perfectly loving if he does exist, but I think the majority of theists believe otherwise. Everything else seems valid to me.


1. Agreed.

2. Agreed.

3. I'm sorry what? Is non-resistantly unaware == ignorance?

4. 3 needs clarification

5. This seems clear enough.

6. Yes.

7. Ok.

I'm following everything fine, but could you just make #3 more clear so I can comment properly?

I like these kind of things. *looks at thread* Too bad there are peasants who just can't stomach this type of rigidity.