Do you agree with it? | |||
| Yes | 17 | 34.00% | |
| No | 33 | 66.00% | |
| Total: | 50 | ||
| NightDragon83 said: I like this one better... God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs. |
Lol. I like that one
| NintendoPie said: Well, I definitely feel as if Giant Ice things are a lot more "out of this world" than the Christian God. But then again, many people on VGC would probably disagree just to disagree. |
Oh? You think the evil talking snake that convinced the first two people to eat a fruit (note: it wasn't actually an apple, that was a misinterpretation) that would grant them knowledge of good and evil (for what reason, by the way? So that they could know that the snake was evil?) seems less "out of this world"?
Or perhaps the guy whose physical strength came from his hair?
Goliath was a giant, too.
How about Noah constructing an ark big enough to hold two of EVERY animal... nearly 12000 mammals, 16000 reptiles, etc? And that's using the smallest estimate available.
People living for thousands of years seems normal to you?
Simply put, every religion has its "out of this world" elements.
| Aielyn said: 2. Once again, you're making the faulty assumption that, because this god has a relationship, that the person at the other end of the relationship identifies it as a "relationship with god". You assume that awareness means understanding. You assume that the relationship can only exist if the person calls it "god". You assume that one must be introduced to scripture, or taught of this god, in order to form a relationship. 3. I didn't say that your courage, conscience, or inner voice is god. I said that you can't be 100% sure that it isn't. You can't be absolutely certain that you have no relationship with god, just because you don't identify that relationship as a "relationship with god". Keep in mind, I'm an atheist myself; I just recognise that logical arguments can't disprove the existence of god, because one can't disprove existence of "real" things (as opposed to, for instance, mathematical things, where you can indeed prove that there are no non-trivial solutions to a^n+b^n=c^n for integer n>2). And what you've said about "if that's the case" is precisely my point - if it's the case, then your premise, that there exists people who lack awareness of their relationship with god and do not resist god, is false. And since you can't prove that it isn't the case, I have shown that the truth value of your premise has not been determined. |
2. This point is based on point 3.
3. Well no, I can't disprove God if you conjure it up as something is meaningless as a "precense". You could make the argument that God is just a pencil. I wouldn't be able to disprove it, but it would mean the word "God" is completely meanignless. So if that's what we're calling God now, then no, I can't disprove "God".
But most people (including myself) are interested in the meaningful and discernable interpretations of God. No one takes the definition you said seriously, so there's no reason to discuss them seriously.
| Jay520 said:
So what you are saying is this: Everyone who accepts love is a theist, even if they don't recognize that love is God? Self-proclaimed atheists are actually theists so long as they accept love. That's one of the wilder claims I've heard, but okay. |
I don't care if it's wilder, it's the only one that makes sense. There is only one thing God can be, and that's love. You know why? Because love is the most powerful thing known to man. If can break walls, it can restore homes, it can bring joy and happiness to people more than anything else in the world. The love I'm talking about is the one rooted in total unconditional love for a person no matter who are what they've done.
Everyone will be touched by this love, but the belief is that ultimately some will accept it and some won't, preferring to bathe in death. (death being everything that the evil one lives for, such as corruption, hate, immorality, lust, deceit, and much more).
One day, everyone will have the chance to recognize this love for who and what it is. The choice will be fully theirs. Imho that's the only way to interpret the christian doctrine.
You don't believe the bible, but if we're going to talk about God, might as well open the book.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+2%3A1-6&version=NKJV
The holy spirit restrains the evil one and is active in the world. That is a testimony to all living beings today.
Also
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romains+1%3A20-21&version=NKJV
God witnesses through creation.
There is also the witness of the apostles (those crazy evangelists, you know). And lastly, this verse:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+2%3A11&version=NIV
One day, no matter who you are, no matter your belief, one day every tongue will confess willingly or reluctantly that Jesus is the one true God. Why? Because when you really sit down to think about it, it really is the only logical conclusion. We have a maker, he is good, he died to redeem us, he is meek, he asks us to love one another, how does it not make sense? I realize we can debate forever, but really bottom line is that every human soul on this planet will have seen the fingerprints of God in their lives, and they will make a voluntary choice to say "Yes I want you", or "No, I don't want you".
I wish I could be nicer in explaining this but it is like rock solid in my mind so it's hard for me not to be strong-minded about it.
| Jay520 said: Well no, I can't disprove God if you conjure it up as something is meaningless as a "precense". You could make the argument that God is just a pencil. I wouldn't be able to disprove it, but it would mean the word "God" is completely meanignless. So if that's what we're calling God now, then no, I can't disprove "God". But most people (including myself) are interested in the meaningful and discernable interpretations of God. |
You think that the idea of a god's relationship with a person manifesting as a conscience isn't meaningful?
You seem to confuse the "purpose" of a god with the "manifestation" of it. If a god manifested as a pencil, that wouldn't prevent such a god from being all-powerful. You seem to be seeking justification for considering "a relationship with god" to mean "speaking with god in your head" or "accepting that god is real", but there's no reason to make that assumption.
The problem I'm seeing is that you're arguing against "God" without ever having defined it. And no, "the bible does" isn't a valid response, because the bible never actually addresses the nature of the god (to be clear, I don't mean "nature" as in "attitude", I mean it as in "what the god is made of and how it interacts with the world normally").
| happydolphin said: I don't care if it's wilder, it's the only one that makes sense. There is only one thing God can be, and that's love. You know why? Because love is the most powerful thing known to man. If can break walls, it can restore homes, it can bring joy and happiness to people more than anything else in the world. The love I'm talking about is the one rooted in total unconditional love for a person no matter who are what they've done. Everyone will be touched by this love, but the belief is that ultimately some will accept it and some won't, preferring to bathe in death. (death being everything that the evil one lives for, such as corruption, hate, immorality, lust, deceit, and much more). One day, everyone will have the chance to recognize this love for who and what it is. The choice will be fully theirs. Imho that's the only way to interpret the christian doctrine. You don't believe the bible, but if we're going to talk about God, might as well open the book. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+2%3A1-6&version=NKJV The holy spirit restrains the evil one and is active in the world. That is a testimony to all living beings today. Also http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romains+1%3A20-21&version=NKJV God witnesses through creation. There is also the witness of the apostles (those crazy evangelists, you know). And lastly, this verse: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+2%3A11&version=NIV One day, no matter who you are, no matter your belief, one day every tongue will confess willingly or reluctantly that Jesus is the one true God. Why? Because when you really sit down to think about it, it really is the only logical conclusion. We have a maker, he is good, he died to redeem us, he is meek, he asks us to love one another, how does it not make sense? I realize we can debate forever, but really bottom line is that every human soul on this planet will have seen the fingerprints of God in their lives, and they will make a voluntary choice to say "Yes I want you", or "No, I don't want you". I wish I could be nicer in explaining this but it is like rock solid in my mind so it's hard for me not to be strong-minded about it. |
1. I accept love. Am I an atheist.
2. SO some day people will have to choose to accept if love is or isn't God? That still doesn't dodge the problem that some people are not given a reasonable and fair opportunity to know that love is God.
| Aielyn said: Oh? You think the evil talking snake that convinced the first two people to eat a fruit (note: it wasn't actually an apple, that was a misinterpretation) that would grant them knowledge of good and evil (for what reason, by the way? So that they could know that the snake was evil?) seems less "out of this world"? Or perhaps the guy whose physical strength came from his hair? Goliath was a giant, too. How about Noah constructing an ark big enough to hold two of EVERY animal... nearly 12000 mammals, 16000 reptiles, etc? And that's using the smallest estimate available. People living for thousands of years seems normal to you? Simply put, every religion has its "out of this world" elements. |
I didn't say any of those things in my original post. I compared Ice Giants to the Christian God, not to the things you wrote.
Besides, some things you wrote do and don't make sense. Most don't, but one surely sticks out as "does make sense."
| Jay520 said:
1. I accept love. Am I an atheist. 2. SO some day people will have to choose to accept if love is or isn't God? That still doesn't dodge the problem that some people are not given a reasonable and fair opportunity to know that love is God. |
1. The moment you refuse to recognize love for who and what it is, as described by its character (Jesus), you missed it. Love has many shapes in this world, but only one is God.
2. Exactly, more precisely Jesus. In the post you replied to, I gave instances of how God witnesses to the people on earth. The bible is absolute on the fact that no one will be without excuse or reason. It will be a voluntary choice to either choose him, or not choose him. I'm not sure how that works, but that's what it says, and if God truly is real, that's the only way it can make sense.
| Aielyn said: You think that the idea of a god's relationship with a person manifesting as a conscience isn't meaningful? You seem to confuse the "purpose" of a god with the "manifestation" of it. If a god manifested as a pencil, that wouldn't prevent such a god from being all-powerful. You seem to be seeking justification for considering "a relationship with god" to mean "speaking with god in your head" or "accepting that god is real", but there's no reason to make that assumption. The problem I'm seeing is that you're arguing against "God" without ever having defined it. And no, "the bible does" isn't a valid response, because the bible never actually addresses the nature of the god (to be clear, I don't mean "nature" as in "attitude", I mean it as in "what the god is made of and how it interacts with the world normally"). |
By saying that God is a conscience, inner voice, or whatever, you must also assert that people don't have the ability to reject God, since no one can stop the voices in their head. This is flawed because the Bible says you have the Free Will ability to reject God, so your interpretation is wrong, or the idea of God is contradictory.
| NintendoPie said: I didn't say any of those things in my original post. I compared Ice Giants to the Christian God, not to the things you wrote. Besides, some things you wrote do and don't make sense. Most don't, but one surely sticks out as "does make sense." |
Ah, well then, your comparison didn't make sense. Ice Giants weren't gods, and Jesus never promised to destroy the "Christian God". There is nothing about Ice Giants, other than the presumption of non-existence, to relate them to the "Christian God".
Oh, by the way, Ice Giants aren't made out of ice. Another name for them is "Frost Giants".
And can I point out that Adam was made from dirt? Why is being made from dirt any different from being made from ice?
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