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Forums - General Discussion - Argument from nonbelief

 

Do you agree with it?

Yes 17 34.00%
 
No 33 66.00%
 
Total:50
Aielyn said:

2. Analogy doesn't require every subtle feature to apply, only the general properties. The relevant property, here, is that air is ever-present and yet invisible, and essentially necessary for life.

3. One doesn't necessarily have to identify the presence as "god" in order to be aware of it. It is fallacious to assume that awareness of a relationship means understanding of that relationship. Some could just as easily think that the "presence" is really their own courage, or their conscience, or their inner voice, depending on how that awareness is supposed to manifest itself in those who do believe (not being a believer, myself, I can't really be sure).


2. No, being all-powerful and loving/wanting a relationship with every human is relevant. They are relevant because there's a contradiction between God's apparent want for a relationship with every human and the fact that every human isn't given a fair and reasonable opportunity to form such a relationship; despite God's power to give them the opportunity. The air analogy doesn't work.

3. If that's the case, everyone does believe in God, no one's an atheist, and no one's going to Hell. Since every healthy person at one point has a conscience or inner voice, which is really the presence of God. The only true atheists would be people who lack the cognitive capacity to develop a conscience due to biological problems. These people will go to Hell since they are inherently incapable of finding God... but I don't think you want to make that argument.



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NintendoPie said:
Aielyn said:

According to Norse tradition, there were. Why would Norse tradition be any less valid than Jewish/Christian tradition?

Is this a serious question? If so, I don't know how to reply.

Semi-serious. Mostly tongue-in-cheek. The main point was to indirectly invoke Stephen F Roberts' famous quote, "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours".



happydolphin said:
I have a question for you, son.

If you are going to prove the world that God does not exist, what is your conviction?


What do you mean my conviction? What are you asking?



The bottom line is that everybody will be and is touched by the light of God in their lives. The proof is that we are born of love, we can't survive without it. We all have some form of love to allow us to make it past infancy in this world. Without love, we die.

If God is not love, then what is he?



Aielyn said:

Semi-serious. Mostly tongue-in-cheek. The main point was to indirectly invoke Stephen F Roberts' famous quote, "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours".

Well, I definitely feel as if Giant Ice things are a lot more "out of this world" than the Christian God. But then again, many people on VGC would probably disagree just to disagree.



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happydolphin said:
The bottom line is that everybody will be and is touched by the light of God in their lives. The proof is that we are born of love, we can't survive without it. We all have some form of love to allow us to make it past infancy in this world. Without love, we die.

If God is not love, then what is he?


So what you are saying is this: 

Everyone who accepts love is a theist, even if they don't recognize that love is God? Self-proclaimed atheists are actually theists so long as they accept love.

That's one of the wilder claims I've heard, but okay.



NintendoPie said:

Well, I definitely feel as if Giant Ice things are a lot more "out of this world" than the Christian God. 


Explain why.

I find Ice Giants to be more "in this world" since they are composed of materials from this world. While god is made up of materials - dare I say - "out of this world".



Jay520 said:
2. No, being all-powerful and loving/wanting a relationship with every human is relevant. They are relevant because there's a contradiction between God's apparent want for a relationship with every human and the fact that every human isn't given a fair and reasonable opportunity to form such a relationship; despite God's power to give them the opportunity. The air analogy doesn't work.

3. If that's the case, everyone does believe in God, no one's an atheist, and no one's going to Hell. Since every healthy person at one point has a conscience or inner voice, which is really the presence of God. The only true atheists would be people who lack the cognitive capacity to develop a conscience due to biological problems. These people will go to Hell since they are inherently incapable of finding God... but I don't think you want to make that argument.

2. Once again, you're making the faulty assumption that, because this god has a relationship, that the person at the other end of the relationship identifies it as a "relationship with god". You assume that awareness means understanding. You assume that the relationship can only exist if the person calls it "god". You assume that one must be introduced to scripture, or taught of this god, in order to form a relationship.

3. I didn't say that your courage, conscience, or inner voice is god. I said that you can't be 100% sure that it isn't. You can't be absolutely certain that you have no relationship with god, just because you don't identify that relationship as a "relationship with god". Keep in mind, I'm an atheist myself; I just recognise that logical arguments can't disprove the existence of god, because one can't disprove existence of "real" things (as opposed to, for instance, mathematical things, where you can indeed prove that there are no non-trivial solutions to a^n+b^n=c^n for integer n>2). And what you've said about "if that's the case" is precisely my point - if it's the case, then your premise, that there exists people who lack awareness of their relationship with god and do not resist god, is false. And since you can't prove that it isn't the case, I have shown that the truth value of your premise has not been determined.



Jay520 said:


Explain why.

I find Ice Giants to be more "in this world" since they are composed of materials from this world. While god is made up of materials - dare I say - "out of this world".

Because ice is inanimate. It shouldn't be able to creat a giant that knows what it is doing, even if not by much.



Kyuu said:
Loving is a deceiving word.. It carries no absolute value. Too much love would destroy the concept of justice which is always preferable over love.

If love includes not punishing and absolute forgiveness, then I don't think god should be too loving.

But it does.

If you can confess it, you can be forgiven of it. It doesn't matter what you've done, if you turn to God and confess your sins, he will forgive you of ALL unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness."