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Forums - General Discussion - So Detroit is now Bankrupt...

the2real4mafol on 23 July 2013
killerzX said:
thats an utter ridiculous lie, and you know it.

1. 8 hr work days with above minimum wage was implemented without unions. (see: henry ford)

2. and if a company decides it wants to implement a 16 hr work week (you mean day) and pays its employees a couple bucks, i say let them. and let see how many people decide to work for them, and how long they stay in business with those kinds of business practices.

you really dont have any concept of reality when it comes to how markets and businesses operate, do you?

3. "The way i see it why should the lazy executive get millions and yet the hard working people who make the products, the workers get barely enough to live on?"

 seriously or you guys trying to be parodies of communists? is this some kind of joke. ceo's dont work? only their employees are hard working? I would like to see a company be run without a ceo, or with one of those "hard working people" be the ceo, and see how long the company stays solvent.

and those poor working, forced into slave labor, getting paid pennies a day, being abused by their bloodsucking bosses. dont make me laugh

1. Trade Unions were campaigning about an 8 hour day at the beginning of the 20th century if not before. That was still before Henry Ford, even though he may have been of the first to establish it in his company.

2. No it shouldn't be allowed in ANY country. That is pure exploitation. Yes, we need to work but a 16 hour day for peanuts is really stupid and we people need a life outside of work. An 8 hour day is enough for most people. Obviously, in the developed world it wouldn't be exceptable but it shouldn't be any more exceptable in the developing world. It is only excepted that they get exploited because these TNC's go in and almost instantly destroy the local competition often through corruption with state officials and so the TNC's can do what the fuck they like or the worker starves. It's not right, that's why trade unions are needed, so the workers can get a better deal out of their employers. You know it's true because the TNC aims to maximise profit and it will cut ANYTHING to do so including safety measures, wages and worker benefits, while making them work harder. Profit is the only, a company sees, it has no morality. 

3. I'm not a parody but i'm not a communist either. I'm socialist. But go on, try to convince me that CEO's deserve millions of pounds while their workers are lucky to get above minimum wage. Workers have to stick to their contract hours, you are lucky to get a CEO to turn up to work every day.

But haven't you heard of the Worker self-managed factories in Argentina? ~http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyxW4xDq_eE

That proves to work well without any hierarchy. 

Also, if child labour and working for virtually nothing isn't slavery, it certainly is close enough to actually be slavery. 

Like the case of Primark subcontracting to those who employ children in India and pay them almost nothing ~http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWio7NVOnaI

And you think nearly every other TNC does the same sort of thing as Primark



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NolSinkler on 23 July 2013

I'm from Michigan. Glad I live on the West side. Things are nice over on this side of the state.



killerzX on 23 July 2013
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
killerzX said:
Mr Khan said:
 

Unions protect us all from exploitation, and are the only reason that a 40-hour work week is the standard. Too much Union power is not the answer, but neither is a lack of unions.

If all of the working class suffers in poor working conditions, who is going to drive the economy? The super-rich can only buy so many yachts.

except for the inconvienient fact that the 40 hr work week was implemented without unions.

and no, unions dont protect us from exploitation, in fact they like bending us over and giving it to us. they free market and the free transferance of information is what protects us from exploitation. which is why when a state becomes right to work (giving people the option to opt out of the union, not being forced into it) almost everybody leaves the union. 

at bolded: you are seeming more and more each day to actually be a parody of a socialist, and not a genuine statist.

The employer holds the natural bargaining power in any given situation. The workers need mass representation in order to prevent exploitation. If you don't think this country isn't absolutely stupid with worker exploitation (from the so-called job creators) today, then there is no hope for you.


Except the problem is... State unions are also voting blocks that basically overpower local politics granting huge unsustainable benefits for local politcians.   Which were the problematic unions... not the UAW.  (Heck, auto industry is doing great right now!)

I think that's secretly why some public unions require you to live OUTSIDE the city to be a part of the union.  That's how the cleveland paramdeics union works.  If you live IN cleveland you can't be a paramedic in cleveland.

Of course that said, while state unions were a huge problem, it's not like they were the only problem.  The giant shrinking of the city in population while keeping the same land size played it's part as well.

 

at bolded: i think that was more a result of detroits failure, than a cause.



Marks on 23 July 2013
killerzX said:
Mr Khan said:
Marks said:
the2real4mafol said:

The other day, it was announced that Detroit was filing for bankruptcy, the largest American city, if not the largest city in the world to do so. I find it quite depressing really, that once a great city has been allowed to rot like this. I shouldn't be suprised though, as cars was it's heart, it's what made Detroit. Once manufacturing of cars left for Asia in the 80's and 90's, the city sort of died i guess but to think in all this time it hasn't really been re-invented yet. It has been allowed to wallow in the past. Just one of the great flaws of capitalism i guess, as profit was put first and so companies would rather exploit Asian workers rather than employ people in their home country. And to think this could of happened in many cities around the world if they weren't reinvented. The Eastern parts of London come to mind for me, that area became a dump in the 80's but does ok now because of the financial district and the investment from the 2012 olympics. 

But anyway, let's discuss this. 

1. Was this avoidable?

2. How can Detroit become prosperous again? if possible

3. Will we ever learn from the mistakes of Detroit? Where most of the city's economy was based off making cars and nothing else. 


It's the UAW's fault plain and simple for ruining the auto industry. When will people learn that union's have outlived their usefulenes and are now doing more harm than good? At the turn of the century they were useful for getting safe working conditions, overtime pay, etc. but now they just demand outrageous wages, all the time off you could want, and protect unproductive workers from being canned. 

Disband the UAW (U Aren't Working) and you will see jobs staying in America instead of going to Mexico. Or at the very least make Michigan a Right to Work state and let workers choose to leave the union but keep their job. I'm sure many workers will find conditions the same, and will enjoy not having part of their salary go to Union dues. 

Unions protect us all from exploitation, and are the only reason that a 40-hour work week is the standard. Too much Union power is not the answer, but neither is a lack of unions.

If all of the working class suffers in poor working conditions, who is going to drive the economy? The super-rich can only buy so many yachts.

except for the inconvienient fact that the 40 hr work week was implemented without unions.

and no, unions dont protect us from exploitation, in fact they like bending us over and giving it to us. they free market and the free transferance of information is what protects us from exploitation. which is why when a state becomes right to work (giving people the option to opt out of the union, not being forced into it) almost everybody leaves the union. 

at bolded: every day you seem less and less like an actual socialist and more and more like a parady of one.


Thank you! Exactly. Haha and I was thinking the same thing about the bolded. 



Marks on 23 July 2013
the2real4mafol said:
Marks said:
the2real4mafol said:

The other day, it was announced that Detroit was filing for bankruptcy, the largest American city, if not the largest city in the world to do so. I find it quite depressing really, that once a great city has been allowed to rot like this. I shouldn't be suprised though, as cars was it's heart, it's what made Detroit. Once manufacturing of cars left for Asia in the 80's and 90's, the city sort of died i guess but to think in all this time it hasn't really been re-invented yet. It has been allowed to wallow in the past. Just one of the great flaws of capitalism i guess, as profit was put first and so companies would rather exploit Asian workers rather than employ people in their home country. And to think this could of happened in many cities around the world if they weren't reinvented. The Eastern parts of London come to mind for me, that area became a dump in the 80's but does ok now because of the financial district and the investment from the 2012 olympics. 

But anyway, let's discuss this. 

1. Was this avoidable?

2. How can Detroit become prosperous again? if possible

3. Will we ever learn from the mistakes of Detroit? Where most of the city's economy was based off making cars and nothing else. 


It's the UAW's fault plain and simple for ruining the auto industry. When will people learn that union's have outlived their usefulenes and are now doing more harm than good? At the turn of the century they were useful for getting safe working conditions, overtime pay, etc. but now they just demand outrageous wages, all the time off you could want, and protect unproductive workers from being canned. 

Disband the UAW (U Aren't Working) and you will see jobs staying in America instead of going to Mexico. Or at the very least make Michigan a Right to Work state and let workers choose to leave the union but keep their job. I'm sure many workers will find conditions the same, and will enjoy not having part of their salary go to Union dues. 

Oh so whenever a industry fails, always gotta blame someone like the unions have you? You don't realise how useful trade unions are do you? Without them, we would still be working 16 hours a day for a few dollars a day. The work would be deadly due to a a lack of safety regulations. There would be child labour. The workplace would be filthy. The factories would be far more polluting. You could just go to a Chinese or Indian factory and you would see what your work would be like without the imput of trade unions all because the companies are just greedy. I'm sure they could get there products made in a developed country and still make money.

Without trade unions, i'm sure companies would go back to their exploitative ways. Without no one pushing for the worker to get the best deal, wages would remain flat despite inflation. They would get away without allowing people to have holidays off every now and then or have sick pay. The way i see it why should the lazy executive get millions and yet the hard working people who make the products, the workers get barely enough to live on? 

And another thing, if American car companies want to be popular again, they need to make fuel efficient cars now. 


Really, you think if unions disappeared today that all of a sudden people would be forced to work 16 hours a day with no overtime pay, no safety equipment, and in filthy environments? 

No, the free market (which includes the employee/labour market) would force companies to improve conditions or else have their workers quit and work for the competition. If the factory across the street has high tech safety equipment and offers better pay, you can either match it or see your staff flock out like bats out of hell. The free market works as well, if not better, than goverment in all instances. 



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Augen on 24 July 2013

The challenge for many American cities is that our infrastructure allows for greater competition between cities now.

The major I live near is Cincinnati, Ohio. It has shed people nearly every year steadily since it peaked in 1950 to now be back at 1890 levels and has never been able to adjust. Why? Because people fled to the surrounding areas, and then businesses and tax revenue followed. Boom towns like Florence, Kentucky or Mason, Ohio grew up because people liked things such lower taxes, lower land and housing prices, better schools, etc.

Cincinnati, like Detroit on smaller scale, has struggled to adjust to the fact that they have to serve and market themselves to people and businesses. Why do you visit a city? Why do you want to live there? Why do you want to do business there?

The thing is, as people pointed out, these issues were seen decades ago in Detroit. Yet major reform never happened and they will pay for it likely with brutal austerity as one generation sacrifices for the poor planning of the previous ones.



Kasz216 on 24 July 2013
killerzX said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
killerzX said:
Mr Khan said:
 

 

 

 

 

The giant shrinking of the city in population while keeping the same land size played it's part as well.

 

at bolded: i think that was more a result of detroits failure, than a cause.


Nah, most cities have had huge decreases in population since the 1950's due to various issues and federal governent policies.

Detroit didn't help itself in a lot of areas, but really... even the UAW jobs fled before Detroit had anything to say about it, because all those jobs ended up moving out of detroit and into the suburbs outside of detroit.  (Well before they moved to mexico and overseas).

Even when the Auto Industry was booming, Detroit was going bankrupt and dieing.



Mr Khan on 24 July 2013
Marks said:
the2real4mafol said:

Oh so whenever a industry fails, always gotta blame someone like the unions have you? You don't realise how useful trade unions are do you? Without them, we would still be working 16 hours a day for a few dollars a day. The work would be deadly due to a a lack of safety regulations. There would be child labour. The workplace would be filthy. The factories would be far more polluting. You could just go to a Chinese or Indian factory and you would see what your work would be like without the imput of trade unions all because the companies are just greedy. I'm sure they could get there products made in a developed country and still make money.

Without trade unions, i'm sure companies would go back to their exploitative ways. Without no one pushing for the worker to get the best deal, wages would remain flat despite inflation. They would get away without allowing people to have holidays off every now and then or have sick pay. The way i see it why should the lazy executive get millions and yet the hard working people who make the products, the workers get barely enough to live on? 

And another thing, if American car companies want to be popular again, they need to make fuel efficient cars now. 


Really, you think if unions disappeared today that all of a sudden people would be forced to work 16 hours a day with no overtime pay, no safety equipment, and in filthy environments? 

No, the free market (which includes the employee/labour market) would force companies to improve conditions or else have their workers quit and work for the competition. If the factory across the street has high tech safety equipment and offers better pay, you can either match it or see your staff flock out like bats out of hell. The free market works as well, if not better, than goverment in all instances. 

Workers quit and go where? Labor is a buyer's market, inherently, and all companies would push wages down as low as they felt they could for the job to still be "worth it" (and not in terms of what the job is fairly worth, but that you can hit a point where the pay is so low that people would just rather go on welfare)



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the2real4mafol on 24 July 2013
Marks said:
the2real4mafol said:
Marks said:
the2real4mafol said:

The other day, it was announced that Detroit was filing for bankruptcy, the largest American city, if not the largest city in the world to do so. I find it quite depressing really, that once a great city has been allowed to rot like this. I shouldn't be suprised though, as cars was it's heart, it's what made Detroit. Once manufacturing of cars left for Asia in the 80's and 90's, the city sort of died i guess but to think in all this time it hasn't really been re-invented yet. It has been allowed to wallow in the past. Just one of the great flaws of capitalism i guess, as profit was put first and so companies would rather exploit Asian workers rather than employ people in their home country. And to think this could of happened in many cities around the world if they weren't reinvented. The Eastern parts of London come to mind for me, that area became a dump in the 80's but does ok now because of the financial district and the investment from the 2012 olympics. 

But anyway, let's discuss this. 

1. Was this avoidable?

2. How can Detroit become prosperous again? if possible

3. Will we ever learn from the mistakes of Detroit? Where most of the city's economy was based off making cars and nothing else. 


It's the UAW's fault plain and simple for ruining the auto industry. When will people learn that union's have outlived their usefulenes and are now doing more harm than good? At the turn of the century they were useful for getting safe working conditions, overtime pay, etc. but now they just demand outrageous wages, all the time off you could want, and protect unproductive workers from being canned. 

Disband the UAW (U Aren't Working) and you will see jobs staying in America instead of going to Mexico. Or at the very least make Michigan a Right to Work state and let workers choose to leave the union but keep their job. I'm sure many workers will find conditions the same, and will enjoy not having part of their salary go to Union dues. 

Oh so whenever a industry fails, always gotta blame someone like the unions have you? You don't realise how useful trade unions are do you? Without them, we would still be working 16 hours a day for a few dollars a day. The work would be deadly due to a a lack of safety regulations. There would be child labour. The workplace would be filthy. The factories would be far more polluting. You could just go to a Chinese or Indian factory and you would see what your work would be like without the imput of trade unions all because the companies are just greedy. I'm sure they could get there products made in a developed country and still make money.

Without trade unions, i'm sure companies would go back to their exploitative ways. Without no one pushing for the worker to get the best deal, wages would remain flat despite inflation. They would get away without allowing people to have holidays off every now and then or have sick pay. The way i see it why should the lazy executive get millions and yet the hard working people who make the products, the workers get barely enough to live on? 

And another thing, if American car companies want to be popular again, they need to make fuel efficient cars now. 


Really, you think if unions disappeared today that all of a sudden people would be forced to work 16 hours a day with no overtime pay, no safety equipment, and in filthy environments? 

No, the free market (which includes the employee/labour market) would force companies to improve conditions or else have their workers quit and work for the competition. If the factory across the street has high tech safety equipment and offers better pay, you can either match it or see your staff flock out like bats out of hell. The free market works as well, if not better, than goverment in all instances. 

These companies would try to reduce costs as much as possible wherever they go to make more profit. That is their only goal in a free market, they aren't made to be accountable for their workers in pay and safety etc. 

But yes, i do think companies would try to force people to do 16 hours a day for pennies a day as they wouldn't be held by regulation and so could do what they want. This would happen unless ordinary people ran the businesses on a local level rather than the rich run it on a international level. This is because little care is put into anything on a larger scale of production.

Also, a billionaire from Australia did suggest paying workers very little money once ~http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/billionaire-gina-rinehart-sparks-controversy-2-a-day-pay-remark-article-1.1152735

We can persume this action wouldn't work but if the majority of companies pay so little than workers would have to put up with it (like in much of the developing world), if it weren't for trade unions pushing for their interests (which don't really exist in the developing world).

Personally, i don't trust a truly free market and i don't think it is possible either because of our flaws as people. How could the market be free if a certain company dominated that industry? I feel strong regulation is needed to make a "fairer market" rather than a free one. If free trade is supposed to make people richer why does it take so long to happen?  



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

CDiablo on 24 July 2013
KylieDog said:
the2real4mafol said:

2. How can Detroit become prosperous again? if possible

 


I give you...



Delta City!

Thats a stupid idea. I cant imagine all the scum being cleaned up by the police force they have out there. Half the populus are heavily armed gangsters and the other half are nuke heads. If you can name one cop or one type of cop that can clean up the city ill paypal you $100.



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