By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Microsoft - Microsoft: Xbox One 'balances needs of consumers, publishers and retailers'

Euphoria14 on 13 June 2013
DirtyP2002 said:
Euphoria14 said:
DirtyP2002 said:


No, it hasn't been this way forever.

- development costs are as high as never before
- marketing costs are as high as never before

And this is not about the Call of Dutys, Halos or Battlefields. It is about the AA titles like the ones THQ released (Saints Row, Homefront) or 38 studios with Kings of Amalur. Those were not bad games at all, yet they weren't able to survive. Another example would be Socom. Why do you think Sony shut Zipper down and those guys lost their job? Sony Liverpool? BigBig? Rockstar Vancouver? Bizarre Creations? Team Bondi? (All of them are just examples of the past 24 months)

We are at a point where you either make a AAA game with a HUGE budget and marketing costs (CoD, Halo, BF, etc) or a smaller XBLA / PSN game (Limbo, Minecraft, Walking Dead etc.). The market for medium seized games totally collapsed. Those games need to make money as well and used games and piracy are not helping so I can understand every publisher that tries to protect these studios and their games.

We know why THQ died and it all starts and ends with UDraw.

38 Studios died because they made promises they couldn't keep and never had money to begin with. They were based off a loan by Rhode Island that they couldn't pay back. They bit off more than they could chew.

Zipper went belly up because they kept making crap games that nobody wanted to buy.

Rockstar Vancouver was shutdown in favor of merging them with Rockstar Toronto.

Team Bondi had allegations of poor working conditions and due to nobody wanting to hire them for a new project, they were placed into administration and liquidated.

 

As for your second point, check out this thread with an article by Jim Sterling.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=162417&page=1#16

 

yeah there is an explanation for everything. At least one that is barely scratching the surface and does not provide a solution and raises the next questions, but I won't go into detail about this one. (Just one example: Why did Team Bondi had these poor working conditions? Because their financial situation was already tight. Why was it tight? ... you get the idea.)

 

And Jim Sterlings article was lacking basic knowledge. He refuses to see a connection between quality, budget and sales. He says: Make games cheaper to develop, problem solved. That is his argument.

You know what happens when the budget is reduced by a big margin?
People will say: "Zipper went belly up because they kept making crap games that nobody wanted to buy."

Team Bondi's working conditions were tight because of a financial situation due to used game sales? Only game they released was LA Noire!

 

As for your take on the Sterling piece. Quality is NOT tied to budget. Spending more money =/= better game. Plenty of games cost tend of millions and still suck, meanwhile you have Minecraft, Metro 2033, Demon's Souls, The Witcher, The Witcher 2 and many other high quality titles than did not cost tens of millions of dollars to make.

The Witcher 2, one of the nicest looking titles cost just 8.5M to develop with the original costing ~6M. Demon's Souls was only expected to sell ~75k copies in the US, so no doubt costs weren't that high.



iPhone = Great gaming device. Don't agree? Who cares, because you're wrong.

Currently playing:

Final Fantasy VI (iOS), Final Fantasy: Record Keeper (iOS) & Dragon Quest V (iOS)     

    

Got a retro room? Post it here!

Around the Network
DJEVOLVE on 13 June 2013
Euphoria14 said:

Hey guys, you need to understand. Gamestop has been having years of record profits, Microsoft makes billions and Call of Duty sells over 20M copies annually.

They need more money at the expense of the consumers who put all that money into their pockets. Fuck us gamers and our ownership rights, we need to think about them and stop being so greedy.


Excuse me while I go rub the pain out of my face from that gigantic slap MS caught me with.



Most software companies have lost so much. The only people making a profit is the top of gaming. reread the article. What was it, 194 software companies went under and you didn't even notice. I did and so did many others.



DJEVOLVE on 13 June 2013
DirtyP2002 said:
Euphoria14 said:
DirtyP2002 said:


No, it hasn't been this way forever.

- development costs are as high as never before
- marketing costs are as high as never before

And this is not about the Call of Dutys, Halos or Battlefields. It is about the AA titles like the ones THQ released (Saints Row, Homefront) or 38 studios with Kings of Amalur. Those were not bad games at all, yet they weren't able to survive. Another example would be Socom. Why do you think Sony shut Zipper down and those guys lost their job? Sony Liverpool? BigBig? Rockstar Vancouver? Bizarre Creations? Team Bondi? (All of them are just examples of the past 24 months)

We are at a point where you either make a AAA game with a HUGE budget and marketing costs (CoD, Halo, BF, etc) or a smaller XBLA / PSN game (Limbo, Minecraft, Walking Dead etc.). The market for medium seized games totally collapsed. Those games need to make money as well and used games and piracy are not helping so I can understand every publisher that tries to protect these studios and their games.

We know why THQ died and it all starts and ends with UDraw.

38 Studios died because they made promises they couldn't keep and never had money to begin with. They were based off a loan by Rhode Island that they couldn't pay back. They bit off more than they could chew.

Zipper went belly up because they kept making crap games that nobody wanted to buy.

Rockstar Vancouver was shutdown in favor of merging them with Rockstar Toronto.

Team Bondi had allegations of poor working conditions and due to nobody wanting to hire them for a new project, they were placed into administration and liquidated.

 

As for your second point, check out this thread with an article by Jim Sterling.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=162417&page=1#16

 

yeah there is an explanation for everything. At least one that is barely scratching the surface and does not provide a solution and raises the next questions, but I won't go into detail about this one. (Just one example: Why did Team Bondi had these poor working conditions? Because their financial situation was already tight. Why was it tight? ... you get the idea.)

 

And Jim Sterlings article was lacking basic knowledge. He refuses to see a connection between quality, budget and sales. He says: Make games cheaper to develop, problem solved. That is his argument.

You know what happens when the budget is reduced by a big margin?
People will say: "Zipper went belly up because they kept making crap games that nobody wanted to buy."


Nailed it.



DJEVOLVE on 13 June 2013
Max King of the Wild said:
The fact is that the needs of the consumer greatly outweigh everything else. Its their money they are using. They spend their money in exchange for goods and services. Those should then belong to them and do what they please.

The rights of the consumer should never be infringed on over the business. If the business is failing they should do something that doesn't effect that. Raise the price is the best solution. It may suck donkey balls but its the only way.


No I don't need to pay more because others are cheap. also then everyone would buy used and thus creating a downward spiral.



Max King of the Wild on 13 June 2013
DJEVOLVE said:
Max King of the Wild said:
The fact is that the needs of the consumer greatly outweigh everything else. Its their money they are using. They spend their money in exchange for goods and services. Those should then belong to them and do what they please.

The rights of the consumer should never be infringed on over the business. If the business is failing they should do something that doesn't effect that. Raise the price is the best solution. It may suck donkey balls but its the only way.


No I don't need to pay more because others are cheap. also then everyone would buy used and thus creating a downward spiral.

Then lower the price. LOL... logic is lost on you. Everyone (300million console owners) buy used games.... that no one bought new... riiiiight.



Around the Network
DJEVOLVE on 13 June 2013
Max King of the Wild said:
DJEVOLVE said:
Max King of the Wild said:
The fact is that the needs of the consumer greatly outweigh everything else. Its their money they are using. They spend their money in exchange for goods and services. Those should then belong to them and do what they please.

The rights of the consumer should never be infringed on over the business. If the business is failing they should do something that doesn't effect that. Raise the price is the best solution. It may suck donkey balls but its the only way.


No I don't need to pay more because others are cheap. also then everyone would buy used and thus creating a downward spiral.

Then lower the price. LOL... logic is lost on you. Everyone (300million console owners) buy used games.... that no one bought new... riiiiight.


Let me explain it again. If you raise the price, most won't buy new. They will wait for someone else to do so, creating a downward spiril of people not buying new because prices are to high to manage. Do you understand economics? I am using logic and not only thinking of my self. I'm thinking of everyone at the table. Most on VGchartz are only thinking of them selfs. Not all the software companies that are barely hanging on. It's got to happen or all we will have is COD. all the time.



DJEVOLVE on 13 June 2013
DirtyP2002 said:
Euphoria14 said:
DirtyP2002 said:
Euphoria14 said:
DirtyP2002 said:
Yeah, I agree. This is the best for the industry. Ask THQ.


THQ didn't die because of second hand sales. THQ died because they put all their eggs in the UDraw basket and it bled them dry. That and overpaying for licensing for certain franchises and sales not going as they expected.

What happened to them was not the consumers fault. Why do you blame yourself and agree on punishment?


Sure, they made some gue mistakes, but used game sales did not help either.
Ask the other 140 studios shutting down this gen.

Businesses shut down not due to 2nd hand games sales. They shut down due to bad business decisions. This is how the industry works. It has always been this way. When one falls there is usually another to rise in it's place.

This is plain and simply a case of them wanting to blame us for their mistakes and they don't just stop at the blaming either. They want us to now fund their mistakes.


No, it hasn't been this way forever.

- development costs are as high as never before
- marketing costs are as high as never before

And this is not about the Call of Dutys, Halos or Battlefields. It is about the AA titles like the ones THQ released (Saints Row, Homefront) or 38 studios with Kings of Amalur. Those were not bad games at all, yet they weren't able to survive. Another example would be Socom. Why do you think Sony shut Zipper down and those guys lost their job? Sony Liverpool? BigBig? Rockstar Vancouver? Bizarre Creations? Team Bondi? (All of them are just examples of the past 24 months)

We are at a point where you either make a AAA game with a HUGE budget and marketing costs (CoD, Halo, BF, etc) or a smaller XBLA / PSN game (Limbo, Minecraft, Walking Dead etc.). The market for medium seized games totally collapsed. Those games need to make money as well and used games and piracy are not helping so I can understand every publisher that tries to protect these studios and their games.


Once again I agree.



Euphoria14 on 13 June 2013
DJEVOLVE said:
Euphoria14 said:

Hey guys, you need to understand. Gamestop has been having years of record profits, Microsoft makes billions and Call of Duty sells over 20M copies annually.

They need more money at the expense of the consumers who put all that money into their pockets. Fuck us gamers and our ownership rights, we need to think about them and stop being so greedy.


Excuse me while I go rub the pain out of my face from that gigantic slap MS caught me with.


Most software companies have lost so much. The only people making a profit is the top of gaming. reread the article. What was it, 194 software companies went under and you didn't even notice. I did and so did many others.

I did notice since I have been a regular on this site for about the last 6 years.

I just know that this isn't because of used games. A quick look into each company shows this.

 

Off the top of my head. 

 

3D Realms - Went under because they were stuck in development hell for ~10 years.

Silicon Knights - Went under because they were stuck in development hell for ~10 years.

Free Radical Design - Went under because they made crap like Haze that nobody wanted. Were swallowed up by Crytek UK.

38 Studios - Leveraged themselves on the success of Amalur to pay their government loans and dev costs for their MMORPG. They failed.

Atari - Well, they are just used to it.

 

I could look into the rest on the list, but I know majority had nothing to do with used games. It almost always comes down to bad business decisions, which is why the idea of placing the blame and burden on the consumer is wrong.



iPhone = Great gaming device. Don't agree? Who cares, because you're wrong.

Currently playing:

Final Fantasy VI (iOS), Final Fantasy: Record Keeper (iOS) & Dragon Quest V (iOS)     

    

Got a retro room? Post it here!

DJEVOLVE on 13 June 2013
Euphoria14 said:
DJEVOLVE said:
Euphoria14 said:

Hey guys, you need to understand. Gamestop has been having years of record profits, Microsoft makes billions and Call of Duty sells over 20M copies annually.

They need more money at the expense of the consumers who put all that money into their pockets. Fuck us gamers and our ownership rights, we need to think about them and stop being so greedy.


Excuse me while I go rub the pain out of my face from that gigantic slap MS caught me with.


Most software companies have lost so much. The only people making a profit is the top of gaming. reread the article. What was it, 194 software companies went under and you didn't even notice. I did and so did many others.

I did notice since I have been a regular on this site for about the last 6 years.

I just know that this isn't because of used games. A quick look into each company shows this.

 

Off the top of my head. 

 

3D Realms - Went under because they were stuck in development hell for ~10 years.

Silicon Knights - Went under because they were stuck in development hell for ~10 years.

Free Radical Design - Went under because they made crap like Haze that nobody wanted. Were swallowed up by Crytek UK.

38 Studios - Leveraged themselves on the success of Amalur to pay their government loans and dev costs for their MMORPG. They failed.

Atari - Well, they are just used to it.

 

I could look into the rest on the list, but I know majority had nothing to do with used games. It almost always comes down to bad business decisions, which is why the idea of placing the blame and burden on the consumer is wrong.


So everything is on the developer side and the billions being taken out of the market from gamestop? RIght. Sure some you may be right but majority you are not.



Euphoria14 on 13 June 2013
DJEVOLVE said:


So everything is on the developer side and the billions being taken out of the market from gamestop? RIght. Sure some you may be right but majority you are not.

Yes, it is on the developer side.

 

After I buy a game, it is mine. I can sell it if I want and they have no rights to my resale. 

They don't want people to sell their games? Then don't make games people don't want to keep.

 

Also, many people buy new games with the games they sell off. It isn't a situation where it "takes away" from the industry. In many cases it actually helps. If Joe Shmoe buys God of War used and absolutely loves the game, there is a good chance he will buy God of War 2 when it releases. You might lose a sale here or there, but it helps to grow your franchise by getting your games into as many hands as possible.

It works both ways. Unfortunately these publishers think it only works in a way that harms them and they couldn't be more wrong.

 

 

They need to start understanding they themselves are a big part of the problem.



iPhone = Great gaming device. Don't agree? Who cares, because you're wrong.

Currently playing:

Final Fantasy VI (iOS), Final Fantasy: Record Keeper (iOS) & Dragon Quest V (iOS)     

    

Got a retro room? Post it here!