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Forums - Politics Discussion - Article reasoning that what ended World War II was not the atom bomb

Kasz216 said:
Oh, and it's also worth noting, The US wanted Russia to declare war on Japan... up until right before they dropped the bombs.

So whether it was a deciding factor or not, Truman thought it would be.

Arguably Russia only declared war to get their share of war spoils.


What's funny is that russia did not get any war tech from Japan and the US destroyed or Sank anything they could not carry back to the States...Seems like the only thing Russia got was North Korea which turned into a Warzone almost imediately



 



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Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
From what I've read, the Japanese were already ready to surrender and had begun talks up to a full year before the bombs were dropped. The only reason there had not been a surrender was because America demanded the unconditional surrender of Japan, but Japan was only 99.9% willing, with the exception that the emperor be left in power. America said "sorry, that's not your decision". After the bombs were dropped a year later, America accepted the same surrender terms given by the Japanese that full year before. The emperor was left on the throne. We did not get the unconditional surrender that we've been taught the a-bombs garnered.

That's not true actually.  Tied to this actually, most reports of negotiations of surrender come from Russian sources... because this information was delibritly linked to try and prevent russian invasion.

The few offers out there that were real basically involved Japan keeping full soverignty, no war crimes trials, some even asked for land.


In general, among Japan's "Big six" when the war turned there were 3 who wanted to go down fighting... and 3 who wanted to sue for peace.

 

I belielve the 3 who wanted to go down fighting uncoincidentally all would have been charged with war crimes. (Well those that didn't kill themselves.)

 

They wanted to grind out the war until they could get out scott free.

IV. The Japanese Search for Soviet Mediation

Document 29: "Magic" – Diplomatic Summary, War Department, Office of Assistant Chief of Staff, G-2, No. 1204 – July 12, 1945, Top Secret Ultra
Source: Record Group 457, Records of the National Security Agency/Central Security Service, "Magic" Diplomatic Summaries 1942-1945, box 18

Since September 1940, under the covername "Magic," U.S. military intelligence had been routinely decrypting the intercepted cable traffic of the Japanese Foreign Ministry. The National Security Agency kept the 'Magic" diplomatic and military summaries classified for many years and did not release the series for 1942 through August 1945 in its entirety until the early 1990s. This summary includes a report on a cable from Japanese Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo to Ambassador Naotake Sato in Moscow concerning the emperor's decision to seek Soviet help in ending the war. Not knowing that the Soviets had already made a commitment to its Allies to declare war on Japan, Tokyo fruitlessly pursued this option for several weeks. The "Magic" intercepts from mid-July have figured in Gar Alperovitz's argument that Truman and his advisers recognized that the emperor was ready to capitulate if the Allies showed more flexibility on the demand for unconditional surrender. This point is central to Alperovitz's thesis that top U.S. officials recognized a "two-step logic" that moderating unconditional surrender and a Soviet declaration of war would have been enough to induce Japan's surrender without the use of the bomb.[22]

Document 32: Cable to Secretary of State from Acting Secretary Joseph Grew, July 16, 1945, Top Secret
Source: Record Group 59, Decimal Files 1945-1949, 740.0011 PW (PE)/7-1645

The draft of the proclamation to Japan that reached Truman contained language that modified unconditional surrender by promising to retain the emperor.  When former Secretary of State Cordell Hull learned about that development he outlined his objections to Secretary of State Byrnes. The latter was already inclined to reject that part of the draft but Hull’s arguments may have reinforced his decision.

Document 33: "Magic" – Diplomatic Summary, War Department, Office of Assistant Chief of Staff, G-2, No. 1210 – July 17, 1945, Top Secret Ultra
Source: Record Group 457, Records of the National Security Agency/Central Security Service, "Magic" Diplomatic Summaries 1942-1945, box 18.

Another intercept of a cable from Togo to Sato shows that the Foreign Minister rejected unconditional surrender and that the emperor was not “asking the Russian’s mediation in anything like unconditional surrender.”  Incidentally, this “Magic’ Diplomatic Summary” indicates the broad scope and capabilities of the program; for example, it includes translations of intercepted French messages (see pages 8-9). [Page 14 missing from original]


Wrong?
Japan would have accepted unconditional surrender except for the removal of the emperor. I can repeat that again if you'd like.
We didn't get our information from Russia, we got it by intercepting cables TO Russia.

Just read the documents, every single time, the ONE argument that prevented negotiation was removal of the emperor.



Kasz216 said:
bobgamez said:
why exactly did they need to hit defenseless citizens? why couldnt they just nail army bases, it would of had the same effect. Thats one of the things i hated about the bombing decision of the US then


1) Back then Total War was the definition of the day.  See for example the Nazi bombings of London.  Back then they figured bombing cities would cause a countries people to demand surrender quicker.

2) Army bases were generally based inside or near cities.  The cities they attacked actually did have military facilties that were the targets.  Hiroshima was home to a number of military camps and had a supply base.  

Nagasaki was a huge industrial city that produced a lot of war matierals.  90% of the cities workers built things for the war.

 

They were honestly probably the best military targets available, because all the other ones had already been bombed into dust.

An argument i've read is that the Germans would have won the air "Battle of Britain" if they had stayed focused on air-fields and military facilities, but the idea that terrorizing the populace would work better is what ultimately took the pressure off the RAF enough to allow them to regroup.

Really Germany's defeat in WWII was an object lesson in how going out of your way to be evil just hurts you yourself: they wasted a great lot of resources burning Jews (and even tried to up the timetable on the Holocaust as the war turned sour, when if they had just put it on hold and prioritized killing Soviet soldiers over Jewish civilians, they could have done something), or switching the focus of the battle of Britain to a civilian terror campaign, or their rotten treatment of Soviet civilians (could've gotten a lot more on their side than they did if they had gone out of their way to show that their enemy was Stalin and not the Slavic Peoples)



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Kasz216 said:
Goatseye said:

Imagine you and your friend consider yourselves bff and you tell each other all your secrets. Days later you find out he was developing and used a Nuclear Weapon and god knows what else. Would you still trust him? He does everything to stop you from making friendships and launch global proxy wars in countries that are friend of yours.

The start of the cold war was Waaaaaaaay before that.

I mean hell, it's worth noting Communist Russia came to power in the middle of a war in which 'White" russia was allied with the USA and Britain.  Many of the "Allies" in World War 2 sent troops and supplies to russia during the russian civil war to prevent the communists from coming to power... Including the United States.

So the two countries who didn't really trust each other in the first place.  With the USA trying to prevent them from taking over in the first place, and then communist rehtoric being that htey were basically the enemy of all capitalism.

 

That the two would butt heads after becoming two huge fish in a small pond was inevitable.

That was just a conflict of ideology I consider. After the communist had risen to power they colaborated to defeat Nazi threat until the Japan nuke incident.Cold War would be like launches of proxy wars throught the world (Vietnam, Congo, Bolivia, Cuba), arms race(nukes), strategic missile placements etc...



Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
bobgamez said:
why exactly did they need to hit defenseless citizens? why couldnt they just nail army bases, it would of had the same effect. Thats one of the things i hated about the bombing decision of the US then


1) Back then Total War was the definition of the day.  See for example the Nazi bombings of London.  Back then they figured bombing cities would cause a countries people to demand surrender quicker.

2) Army bases were generally based inside or near cities.  The cities they attacked actually did have military facilties that were the targets.  Hiroshima was home to a number of military camps and had a supply base.  

Nagasaki was a huge industrial city that produced a lot of war matierals.  90% of the cities workers built things for the war.

 

They were honestly probably the best military targets available, because all the other ones had already been bombed into dust.

An argument i've read is that the Germans would have won the air "Battle of Britain" if they had stayed focused on air-fields and military facilities, but the idea that terrorizing the populace would work better is what ultimately took the pressure off the RAF enough to allow them to regroup.

Really Germany's defeat in WWII was an object lesson in how going out of your way to be evil just hurts you yourself: they wasted a great lot of resources burning Jews (and even tried to up the timetable on the Holocaust as the war turned sour, when if they had just put it on hold and prioritized killing Soviet soldiers over Jewish civilians, they could have done something), or switching the focus of the battle of Britain to a civilian terror campaign, or their rotten treatment of Soviet civilians (could've gotten a lot more on their side than they did if they had gone out of their way to show that their enemy was Stalin and not the Slavic Peoples)


This is what i dont get. Why did Hitler invads Russia after they had a pact? That was so dumb! They may have conquered Leningrad but The Stalingrad battle put them on their ass's. I read a few times that Stalin wad low-key scared of Hitler and it took him a while to react to the reports that Nazi Germany invaded Russia

 

Im glad that they tried to invade Russia though because they probably could still be in power over those contries in Europe now.. Maybe



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enditall727 said:
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
bobgamez said:
why exactly did they need to hit defenseless citizens? why couldnt they just nail army bases, it would of had the same effect. Thats one of the things i hated about the bombing decision of the US then


1) Back then Total War was the definition of the day.  See for example the Nazi bombings of London.  Back then they figured bombing cities would cause a countries people to demand surrender quicker.

2) Army bases were generally based inside or near cities.  The cities they attacked actually did have military facilties that were the targets.  Hiroshima was home to a number of military camps and had a supply base.  

Nagasaki was a huge industrial city that produced a lot of war matierals.  90% of the cities workers built things for the war.

 

They were honestly probably the best military targets available, because all the other ones had already been bombed into dust.

An argument i've read is that the Germans would have won the air "Battle of Britain" if they had stayed focused on air-fields and military facilities, but the idea that terrorizing the populace would work better is what ultimately took the pressure off the RAF enough to allow them to regroup.

Really Germany's defeat in WWII was an object lesson in how going out of your way to be evil just hurts you yourself: they wasted a great lot of resources burning Jews (and even tried to up the timetable on the Holocaust as the war turned sour, when if they had just put it on hold and prioritized killing Soviet soldiers over Jewish civilians, they could have done something), or switching the focus of the battle of Britain to a civilian terror campaign, or their rotten treatment of Soviet civilians (could've gotten a lot more on their side than they did if they had gone out of their way to show that their enemy was Stalin and not the Slavic Peoples)


This is what i dont get. Why did Hitler invads Russia after they had a pact? That was so dumb! They may have conquered Leningrad but The Stalingrad battle put them on their ass's. I read a few times that Stalin wad low-key scared of Hitler and it took him a while to react to the reports that Nazi Germany invaded Russia

 

Im glad that they tried to invade Russia though because they probably could still be in power over those contries in Europe now.. Maybe

Almost assuredly so, simply because Germany was just so much more ready for total war than anyone on the continent. Even though America and Britain were ultimately stronger, Germany surely could have attempted a second blitz of Britain in 1941 or early 1942 if they didn't have those resources spread out from Leningrad to the Sea of Azov.

Basically if you take out any one of Germany's major mistakes: their invasion of the USSR, the resources used in the Holocaust, Hitler's inept management style, or their priorities in Britain

I'm sure there's a definitive answer for Hitler's invasion, but my guess is that it was either due to ego (they've got land, we need land, we can crush them), or because he was just as afraid of Stalin betraying him as Stalin was afraid of Hitler.



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Honestly it doesn't really annoy me when people say that the Atomic Bomb ended World War II.
What annoys me is that everyone actually believes that we "saved 1 million American lives" with the bomb. Of course at the time it may have seemed like that, but in hindsight we can see that it was clearly an exaggerated number. So why are people still acting like it's true? I guess that's the way people are, but it's annoying.

Also, I wouldn't mind it so much if I didn't see it myself, but people really need to stop making Pearl Harbor seem much bigger than it is. There were way too many people who were happy when the earthquake hit Japan, saying they deserved it.

Anyway, only reason I even care is because I had to deal with some of this stuff growing up as a half-Japanese male.



Kasz216 said:

Oh, and it's also worth noting, The US wanted Russia to declare war on Japan... up until right before they dropped the bombs.

So whether it was a deciding factor or not, Truman thought it would be.

Arguably Russia only declared war to get their share of war spoils after the Nuclear Bombs were dropped.

 

In a way, you could argue the nuclear bombs caused the russian invasion.

The Russians certainly couldn't trust America after that, they were like close allies before the nuclear bombs were dropped



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theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
From what I've read, the Japanese were already ready to surrender and had begun talks up to a full year before the bombs were dropped. The only reason there had not been a surrender was because America demanded the unconditional surrender of Japan, but Japan was only 99.9% willing, with the exception that the emperor be left in power. America said "sorry, that's not your decision". After the bombs were dropped a year later, America accepted the same surrender terms given by the Japanese that full year before. The emperor was left on the throne. We did not get the unconditional surrender that we've been taught the a-bombs garnered.

That's not true actually.  Tied to this actually, most reports of negotiations of surrender come from Russian sources... because this information was delibritly linked to try and prevent russian invasion.

The few offers out there that were real basically involved Japan keeping full soverignty, no war crimes trials, some even asked for land.


In general, among Japan's "Big six" when the war turned there were 3 who wanted to go down fighting... and 3 who wanted to sue for peace.

 

I belielve the 3 who wanted to go down fighting uncoincidentally all would have been charged with war crimes. (Well those that didn't kill themselves.)

 

They wanted to grind out the war until they could get out scott free.

IV. The Japanese Search for Soviet Mediation 

 Document 29: "Magic" – Diplomatic Summary, War Department, Office of Assistant Chief of Staff, G-2, No. 1204 – July 12, 1945, Top Secret Ultra
Source: Record Group 457, Records of the National Security Agency/Central Security Service, "Magic" Diplomatic Summaries 1942-1945, box 18 

Since September 1940, under the covername "Magic," U.S. military intelligence had been routinely decrypting the intercepted cable traffic of the Japanese Foreign Ministry. The National Security Agency kept the 'Magic" diplomatic and military summaries classified for many years and did not release the series for 1942 through August 1945 in its entirety until the early 1990s. This summary includes a report on a cable from Japanese Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo to Ambassador Naotake Sato in Moscow concerning the emperor's decision to seek Soviet help in ending the war. Not knowing that the Soviets had already made a commitment to its Allies to declare war on Japan, Tokyo fruitlessly pursued this option for several weeks. The "Magic" intercepts from mid-July have figured in Gar Alperovitz's argument that Truman and his advisers recognized that the emperor was ready to capitulate if the Allies showed more flexibility on the demand for unconditional surrender. This point is central to Alperovitz's thesis that top U.S. officials recognized a "two-step logic" that moderating unconditional surrender and a Soviet declaration of war would have been enough to induce Japan's surrender without the use of the bomb.[22]

Document 32: Cable to Secretary of State from Acting Secretary Joseph Grew, July 16, 1945, Top Secret
Source: Record Group 59, Decimal Files 1945-1949, 740.0011 PW (PE)/7-1645 

The draft of the proclamation to Japan that reached Truman contained language that modified unconditional surrender by promising to retain the emperor.  When former Secretary of State Cordell Hull learned about that development he outlined his objections to Secretary of State Byrnes. The latter was already inclined to reject that part of the draft but Hull’s arguments may have reinforced his decision.

Document 33: "Magic" – Diplomatic Summary, War Department, Office of Assistant Chief of Staff, G-2, No. 1210 – July 17, 1945, Top Secret Ultra
Source: Record Group 457, Records of the National Security Agency/Central Security Service, "Magic" Diplomatic Summaries 1942-1945, box 18.

Another intercept of a cable from Togo to Sato shows that the Foreign Minister rejected unconditional surrender and that the emperor was not “asking the Russian’s mediation in anything like unconditional surrender.”  Incidentally, this “Magic’ Diplomatic Summary” indicates the broad scope and capabilities of the program; for example, it includes translations of intercepted French messages (see pages 8-9). [Page 14 missing from original]


Wrong?
Japan would have accepted unconditional surrender except for the removal of the emperor. I can repeat that again if you'd like.
We didn't get our information from Russia, we got it by intercepting cables TO Russia.

Just read the documents, every single time, the ONE argument that prevented negotiation was removal of the emperor.


Yes.  Wrong.  Again, Sato was talking to russia mostly to PREVENT russia from invading while they stalled out the US and actually didn't want to surrender.  They weren't goint to sell Sato anything.  Though again... those cables show the exact opposite of what you think they do regardless.


If you read those cables.  You'll see SATO says to Togo that russia would require unconditional surrender EXCEPT for removal of the emperor.

While Togo says they would accept NO unconditional surrender even if it protected the emperor.


The specific Magic cables your talking about in fact talk about what they'd do once the war was over



the2real4mafol said:
Kasz216 said:

Oh, and it's also worth noting, The US wanted Russia to declare war on Japan... up until right before they dropped the bombs.

So whether it was a deciding factor or not, Truman thought it would be.

Arguably Russia only declared war to get their share of war spoils after the Nuclear Bombs were dropped.

 

In a way, you could argue the nuclear bombs caused the russian invasion.

The Russians certainly couldn't trust America after that, they were like close allies before the nuclear bombs were dropped

No they weren't.  Both the US and Russia considered fighting each other after the fall of Germany.