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Forums - Gaming - How does the 3DS compare to the PSP, power wise?

FrancisNobleman said:
Specs are not graphics. You people need to compare the best now on Vita vs the best on 3DS. Actual games.

Vita? Thread title says PSP.

Good suggestion though. Here goes, both native res:



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RazorDragon said:

15.3M polygons/sec is for the 2006 version at 200MHz. Here are the specs for the 2008 ver.(65nm), which clocks in about 40M Tri/sec at 400MHz: http://people.csail.mit.edu/kapu/EG_08/Mobile3D_EG08.pdf

Also, no doubt it's running lower than 400MHz. The maximum allowed core frequency is almost never used in portable devices because of heat and battery issues. About the CPU, nobody knows. I find it quite hard to be two ARM11's at 266(and with one being used to wireless functions, so pretty much only 1 core for graphics), since the graphics shown on the 3DS absolutely wouldn't be possible with such an old chip clocked that low. ARM11's can go up to 1GHz, I don't even believe it's possible to underclock one as low as 266MHz.

http://www.dmprof.com/english/e_products/e_pica_200/

Tadaa. Surprised I didn't think of that before, checking DMP's website. If 3DSbrew is right about the 3DS's GPU clock core, then it will be achieving around 20M polygons/sec, about the same as the Gamecube I believe.

Still not sure about the CPU. Early reports before the 3DS was released said it was either two ARM11's or a dual core ARM11 at 266Mhz, I've seen other "sources" that say it's higher than that though.



Just ask kaizar
Hes the ultimate spec source



brendude13 said:

http://www.dmprof.com/english/e_products/e_pica_200/

Tadaa. Surprised I didn't think of that before, checking DMP's website. If 3DSbrew is right about the 3DS's GPU clock core, then it will be achieving around 20M polygons/sec, about the same as the Gamecube I believe.

Still not sure about the CPU. Early reports before the 3DS was released said it was either two ARM11's or a dual core ARM11 at 266Mhz, I've seen other "sources" that say it's higher than that though.

Check a few pages back. I pointed it out, yet everyone continues to ignore it and choose to beleive their in own "sources". I beleive its 2 ARM11 CPU's and not dual-core (sorry I didn't bother correcting myself before).

About the CPU - www.arm.com/products/processors/classic/arm11/index.php?tab=Specifications

ARM11 Processor Family

"The ARM11™ processor family provides the engine that powers many smartphones in production today and is also widely used in consumer, home, and embedded applications. It delivers extreme low power and a range of performance from 350 MHz in small area designs up to 1 GHz in speed-optimized designs in 45 and 65 nm. ARM11 processor software is compatible with all previous generations of ARM processors, and introduces 32-bit SIMD for media processing, physically tagged caches to improve OS context switch performance, TrustZone for hardware-enforced security, and tightly coupled memories for real-time applications."
Considering that the 3DS has two of these in its low profile design, they would have to clock it in the lower regions for the device to have an acceptable battery life. The 3DS has a 1300mAh battery so it would not be farfetched for the CPU clock frequency to be set to 266MHz. The PSP CPU in comparison runs at 222MHz ~ default and can be set to 333MHz (this can be set lower, mind)
Here's a battery life comparision -
Platform Battery capacity Claimed battery life Charge time
Nintendo 3DS 1300 mAh 3DS games: 3-5 hours. DS games: 5-8 hours 3.5 hours
Nintendo DSi XL 1050 mAh 4-5 hours (highest), 9-11 hours (medium), 13-17 hours (lowest) 2-3 hours
Nintendo DSi 840 mAh 3-4 hours (highest), 6-9 hours (medium), 9-14 hours (lowest) 2-3 hours
Nintendo DS Lite 1000 mAh 5-8 hours (high brightness), 15-19 hours (low brightness) 3 hours
Nintendo DS Fat 850 mAh 10 hours 4 hours
Game Boy Advance SP 700 mAh 7-10 hours (high brightness) 3 hours
PSP Go 930 mAh 3-6 hours 2-3 hours
PSP 3000 1200 mAh 4-6 hours 3 hours
iPhone 4 1420 mAh 10 hours video time. Less for Infinity Blade. 2-3 hours


The 3DS is more powerful than the Gamecube, probably more powerful than the Xbox. The CPU is slower, more than two thirds the speed of the Xbox, but it's got twice as much RAM and the GPU is just about twice as powerful.

On the technical side of things, the PSP is actually more powerful than the PS2. Very very slight. Almost identical, but still more powerful. We've seen more better looking games on the PS2 though, and that might be because not as many games were released on the PSP, but if it got the support, who knows if the PSP would actually have better looking games than the PS2? I think the real problem with the PSP was that it could only hold 1.8GB of data..



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walsufnir said:
Kaizar said:
RazorDragon said:
brendude13 said:
hinch said:

So we're looking at 15.3M polygons/sec for the PICA 200 GPU (@200MHz) in the 3DS vs 133M polygons/sec of the SGX543MP4+ (@200MHz) in the Vita.

For the CPU side.. we're also looking at dual core ARM11 CPU (@266MHz) vs quad core Cortex A9 CPU (@800-1000Mhz). The Cortex A9 architecture is leaps and bounds ahead of the the ARM11 ones and theres 4 of them!

There's no discussion about power between those 2 handhelds. Its more powerful than PSP, sure.. but nowhere NEAR the PS Vita.

Did a little more research and I don't think the 3DS's GPU runs at 400Mhz, so yes, 15.3M polygons/sec seems right. I also thought the 3DS's CPU ran at 1Ghz, so many bullshit stats being thrown around.

We should make a table to put all this in.


15.3M polygons/sec is for the 2006 version at 200MHz. Here are the specs for the 2008 ver.(65nm), which clocks in about 40M Tri/sec at 400MHz: http://people.csail.mit.edu/kapu/EG_08/Mobile3D_EG08.pdf

Also, no doubt it's running lower than 400MHz. The maximum allowed core frequency is almost never used in portable devices because of heat and battery issues. About the CPU, nobody knows. I find it quite hard to be two ARM11's at 266(and with one being used to wireless functions, so pretty much only 1 core for graphics), since the graphics shown on the 3DS absolutely wouldn't be possible with such an old chip clocked that low. ARM11's can go up to 1GHz, I don't even believe it's possible to underclock one as low as 266MHz.


The ARM11 CPU was used in the E3 2010 prototype with NIVIDIA 200 MHz GPU and NO Motion Sensors.

The finish 3DS uses a Nintendo Unknown CPU (seems to be 800 MHz a core on firmware 1.0.0-0 as an underclock, which would explain short battery life, I suppose) with PICA200 GPU (2008 or possibly a 2010 Model) and HAS Motion Sensors.

TypeNameDatasheetSource
SoC Nintendo 1048 0H (Custom): CPU, GPU, VRAM & DSP all on one chip. N/A N/A
Processor Core ARM11 MPCore 2x 268MHz & 2x VFP Co-Processor [1] [11]
GPU DMP PICA 268MHz N/A [11]
DSP 134Mhz. 24ch 32728Hz sampling rates. N/A [11]
VRAM 6 MB within SoC. Independent of system memory (FCRAM). N/A [11]
FCRAM 2x64MB Fujitsu MB82M8080-07L [2][3][4] [5]
Storage Toshiba THGBM2G3P1FBAI8 1GB NAND Flash N/A N/A
Power Management Texas Instruments PAIC3010B 0AA37DW N/A FCC filing
Gyroscope Invensense ITG-3270 MEMS Gyroscope [5] N/A
Accelerometer ST Micro 2048 33DH X1MAQ Accelerometer Model LIS331DH [6] N/A
Wifi 802.11b/g Atheros AR6014 [7] N/A
Infrared IC NXP infrared IC, "S750 0803 TSD031C" N/A [10]
Auxiliary Microcontroller Renesas Electronics UC CTR, custom Nintendo microcontroller N/A N/A

from 3dbrew.org ...


3Dbrew, is like going to beyond3D for Wii U specs.

Plus the 3DS has at least 9 MB VRAM and the external storage is Toshiba 2 GB with internal memory of 1.5 GB.



Kaizar said:
walsufnir said:
Kaizar said:
RazorDragon said:
brendude13 said:
hinch said:

So we're looking at 15.3M polygons/sec for the PICA 200 GPU (@200MHz) in the 3DS vs 133M polygons/sec of the SGX543MP4+ (@200MHz) in the Vita.

For the CPU side.. we're also looking at dual core ARM11 CPU (@266MHz) vs quad core Cortex A9 CPU (@800-1000Mhz). The Cortex A9 architecture is leaps and bounds ahead of the the ARM11 ones and theres 4 of them!

There's no discussion about power between those 2 handhelds. Its more powerful than PSP, sure.. but nowhere NEAR the PS Vita.

Did a little more research and I don't think the 3DS's GPU runs at 400Mhz, so yes, 15.3M polygons/sec seems right. I also thought the 3DS's CPU ran at 1Ghz, so many bullshit stats being thrown around.

We should make a table to put all this in.


15.3M polygons/sec is for the 2006 version at 200MHz. Here are the specs for the 2008 ver.(65nm), which clocks in about 40M Tri/sec at 400MHz: http://people.csail.mit.edu/kapu/EG_08/Mobile3D_EG08.pdf

Also, no doubt it's running lower than 400MHz. The maximum allowed core frequency is almost never used in portable devices because of heat and battery issues. About the CPU, nobody knows. I find it quite hard to be two ARM11's at 266(and with one being used to wireless functions, so pretty much only 1 core for graphics), since the graphics shown on the 3DS absolutely wouldn't be possible with such an old chip clocked that low. ARM11's can go up to 1GHz, I don't even believe it's possible to underclock one as low as 266MHz.


The ARM11 CPU was used in the E3 2010 prototype with NIVIDIA 200 MHz GPU and NO Motion Sensors.

The finish 3DS uses a Nintendo Unknown CPU (seems to be 800 MHz a core on firmware 1.0.0-0 as an underclock, which would explain short battery life, I suppose) with PICA200 GPU (2008 or possibly a 2010 Model) and HAS Motion Sensors.

TypeNameDatasheetSource
SoC Nintendo 1048 0H (Custom): CPU, GPU, VRAM & DSP all on one chip. N/A N/A
Processor Core ARM11 MPCore 2x 268MHz & 2x VFP Co-Processor [1] [11]
GPU DMP PICA 268MHz N/A [11]
DSP 134Mhz. 24ch 32728Hz sampling rates. N/A [11]
VRAM 6 MB within SoC. Independent of system memory (FCRAM). N/A [11]
FCRAM 2x64MB Fujitsu MB82M8080-07L [2][3][4] [5]
Storage Toshiba THGBM2G3P1FBAI8 1GB NAND Flash N/A N/A
Power Management Texas Instruments PAIC3010B 0AA37DW N/A FCC filing
Gyroscope Invensense ITG-3270 MEMS Gyroscope [5] N/A
Accelerometer ST Micro 2048 33DH X1MAQ Accelerometer Model LIS331DH [6] N/A
Wifi 802.11b/g Atheros AR6014 [7] N/A
Infrared IC NXP infrared IC, "S750 0803 TSD031C" N/A [10]
Auxiliary Microcontroller Renesas Electronics UC CTR, custom Nintendo microcontroller N/A N/A

from 3dbrew.org ...


3Dbrew, is like going to beyond3D for Wii U specs.

Plus the 3DS has at least 9 MB VRAM and the external storage is Toshiba 2 GB with internal memory of 1.5 GB.


Any proof for the 9 MB VRAM? Perhaps another yahoo-source?



walsufnir said:
Kaizar said:
walsufnir said:
Kaizar said:
RazorDragon said:
brendude13 said:
hinch said:

So we're looking at 15.3M polygons/sec for the PICA 200 GPU (@200MHz) in the 3DS vs 133M polygons/sec of the SGX543MP4+ (@200MHz) in the Vita.

For the CPU side.. we're also looking at dual core ARM11 CPU (@266MHz) vs quad core Cortex A9 CPU (@800-1000Mhz). The Cortex A9 architecture is leaps and bounds ahead of the the ARM11 ones and theres 4 of them!

There's no discussion about power between those 2 handhelds. Its more powerful than PSP, sure.. but nowhere NEAR the PS Vita.

Did a little more research and I don't think the 3DS's GPU runs at 400Mhz, so yes, 15.3M polygons/sec seems right. I also thought the 3DS's CPU ran at 1Ghz, so many bullshit stats being thrown around.

We should make a table to put all this in.


15.3M polygons/sec is for the 2006 version at 200MHz. Here are the specs for the 2008 ver.(65nm), which clocks in about 40M Tri/sec at 400MHz: http://people.csail.mit.edu/kapu/EG_08/Mobile3D_EG08.pdf

Also, no doubt it's running lower than 400MHz. The maximum allowed core frequency is almost never used in portable devices because of heat and battery issues. About the CPU, nobody knows. I find it quite hard to be two ARM11's at 266(and with one being used to wireless functions, so pretty much only 1 core for graphics), since the graphics shown on the 3DS absolutely wouldn't be possible with such an old chip clocked that low. ARM11's can go up to 1GHz, I don't even believe it's possible to underclock one as low as 266MHz.


The ARM11 CPU was used in the E3 2010 prototype with NIVIDIA 200 MHz GPU and NO Motion Sensors.

The finish 3DS uses a Nintendo Unknown CPU (seems to be 800 MHz a core on firmware 1.0.0-0 as an underclock, which would explain short battery life, I suppose) with PICA200 GPU (2008 or possibly a 2010 Model) and HAS Motion Sensors.

TypeNameDatasheetSource
SoC Nintendo 1048 0H (Custom): CPU, GPU, VRAM & DSP all on one chip. N/A N/A
Processor Core ARM11 MPCore 2x 268MHz & 2x VFP Co-Processor [1] [11]
GPU DMP PICA 268MHz N/A [11]
DSP 134Mhz. 24ch 32728Hz sampling rates. N/A [11]
VRAM 6 MB within SoC. Independent of system memory (FCRAM). N/A [11]
FCRAM 2x64MB Fujitsu MB82M8080-07L [2][3][4] [5]
Storage Toshiba THGBM2G3P1FBAI8 1GB NAND Flash N/A N/A
Power Management Texas Instruments PAIC3010B 0AA37DW N/A FCC filing
Gyroscope Invensense ITG-3270 MEMS Gyroscope [5] N/A
Accelerometer ST Micro 2048 33DH X1MAQ Accelerometer Model LIS331DH [6] N/A
Wifi 802.11b/g Atheros AR6014 [7] N/A
Infrared IC NXP infrared IC, "S750 0803 TSD031C" N/A [10]
Auxiliary Microcontroller Renesas Electronics UC CTR, custom Nintendo microcontroller N/A N/A

from 3dbrew.org ...


3Dbrew, is like going to beyond3D for Wii U specs.

Plus the 3DS has at least 9 MB VRAM and the external storage is Toshiba 2 GB with internal memory of 1.5 GB.


Any proof for the 9 MB VRAM? Perhaps another yahoo-source?


Well, 4 MB of VRAM, but 268 MHz across the board for each core both CPU & GPU is clearly fabricated.

AMR11 CPU (difference from ARM9):

Redesigned pipeline, supporting faster clock speeds (target up to 1 GHz)

PICA200:

Specification:

 65 nm Single Core [7](max. clock frequency 400 MHz) pixel performance: 800 Mpixel/s[7] 400 Mpixel/s @100 MHz[2] 1600 Mpixel/s @400 MHz vertex performance: 15.3 Mpolygon/s[7] 40Mtriangle/s @100 MHz[2] 160Mtriangle/s @400 MHz Power consumption: 0.5-1.0 mW/MHz[2] Frame Buffer max. 4095×4095 pixels Supported pixel formats: RGBA 4-4-4-4, RGB 5-6-5, RGBA 5-5-5-1, RGBA 8-8-8-8 Vertex program (ARB_vertex_program) Render-to-Texture MipMap Bilinear texture filtering Alpha blending Full-scene anti-aliasing (2×2) Polygon offset 8-bit stencil buffer 24-bit depth buffer Single/Double/Triple buffer DMP's MAESTRO-2G technology per pixel lighting procedural texture refraction mapping subdivision primitive shadow gaseous object rendering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_3DS



Kaizar said:
walsufnir said:
Kaizar said:
walsufnir said:
Kaizar said:
RazorDragon said:
brendude13 said:
hinch said:

So we're looking at 15.3M polygons/sec for the PICA 200 GPU (@200MHz) in the 3DS vs 133M polygons/sec of the SGX543MP4+ (@200MHz) in the Vita.

For the CPU side.. we're also looking at dual core ARM11 CPU (@266MHz) vs quad core Cortex A9 CPU (@800-1000Mhz). The Cortex A9 architecture is leaps and bounds ahead of the the ARM11 ones and theres 4 of them!

There's no discussion about power between those 2 handhelds. Its more powerful than PSP, sure.. but nowhere NEAR the PS Vita.

Did a little more research and I don't think the 3DS's GPU runs at 400Mhz, so yes, 15.3M polygons/sec seems right. I also thought the 3DS's CPU ran at 1Ghz, so many bullshit stats being thrown around.

We should make a table to put all this in.


15.3M polygons/sec is for the 2006 version at 200MHz. Here are the specs for the 2008 ver.(65nm), which clocks in about 40M Tri/sec at 400MHz: http://people.csail.mit.edu/kapu/EG_08/Mobile3D_EG08.pdf

Also, no doubt it's running lower than 400MHz. The maximum allowed core frequency is almost never used in portable devices because of heat and battery issues. About the CPU, nobody knows. I find it quite hard to be two ARM11's at 266(and with one being used to wireless functions, so pretty much only 1 core for graphics), since the graphics shown on the 3DS absolutely wouldn't be possible with such an old chip clocked that low. ARM11's can go up to 1GHz, I don't even believe it's possible to underclock one as low as 266MHz.


The ARM11 CPU was used in the E3 2010 prototype with NIVIDIA 200 MHz GPU and NO Motion Sensors.

The finish 3DS uses a Nintendo Unknown CPU (seems to be 800 MHz a core on firmware 1.0.0-0 as an underclock, which would explain short battery life, I suppose) with PICA200 GPU (2008 or possibly a 2010 Model) and HAS Motion Sensors.

TypeNameDatasheetSource
SoC Nintendo 1048 0H (Custom): CPU, GPU, VRAM & DSP all on one chip. N/A N/A
Processor Core ARM11 MPCore 2x 268MHz & 2x VFP Co-Processor [1] [11]
GPU DMP PICA 268MHz N/A [11]
DSP 134Mhz. 24ch 32728Hz sampling rates. N/A [11]
VRAM 6 MB within SoC. Independent of system memory (FCRAM). N/A [11]
FCRAM 2x64MB Fujitsu MB82M8080-07L [2][3][4] [5]
Storage Toshiba THGBM2G3P1FBAI8 1GB NAND Flash N/A N/A
Power Management Texas Instruments PAIC3010B 0AA37DW N/A FCC filing
Gyroscope Invensense ITG-3270 MEMS Gyroscope [5] N/A
Accelerometer ST Micro 2048 33DH X1MAQ Accelerometer Model LIS331DH [6] N/A
Wifi 802.11b/g Atheros AR6014 [7] N/A
Infrared IC NXP infrared IC, "S750 0803 TSD031C" N/A [10]
Auxiliary Microcontroller Renesas Electronics UC CTR, custom Nintendo microcontroller N/A N/A

from 3dbrew.org ...


3Dbrew, is like going to beyond3D for Wii U specs.

Plus the 3DS has at least 9 MB VRAM and the external storage is Toshiba 2 GB with internal memory of 1.5 GB.


Any proof for the 9 MB VRAM? Perhaps another yahoo-source?


Well, 4 MB of VRAM, but 268 MHz across the board for each core both CPU & GPU is clearly fabricated.

AMR11 CPU (difference from ARM9):

Redesigned pipeline, supporting faster clock speeds (target up to 1 GHz)

PICA200:

Specification:

 65 nm Single Core [7](max. clock frequency 400 MHz) pixel performance: 800 Mpixel/s[7] 400 Mpixel/s @100 MHz[2] 1600 Mpixel/s @400 MHz vertex performance: 15.3 Mpolygon/s[7] 40Mtriangle/s @100 MHz[2] 160Mtriangle/s @400 MHz Power consumption: 0.5-1.0 mW/MHz[2] Frame Buffer max. 4095×4095 pixels Supported pixel formats: RGBA 4-4-4-4, RGB 5-6-5, RGBA 5-5-5-1, RGBA 8-8-8-8 Vertex program (ARB_vertex_program) Render-to-Texture MipMap Bilinear texture filtering Alpha blending Full-scene anti-aliasing (2×2) Polygon offset 8-bit stencil buffer 24-bit depth buffer Single/Double/Triple buffer DMP's MAESTRO-2G technology per pixel lighting procedural texture refraction mapping subdivision primitive shadow gaseous object rendering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_3DS


I will take it as an explicit "no". Thanks.



DieAppleDie said:
Just ask kaizar
Hes the ultimate spec source

ARM11

Differences from ARM9

In terms of instruction set, the ARM11 builds on the preceding ARM9 generation. It incorporates all ARM926EJ-S features and adds the ARMv6 instructions for media support (SIMD) and accelerating IRQ response.

Microarchitecture improvements in ARM11 cores[2] include:

  • SIMD instructions which can double MPEG-4 and audio digital signal processing algorithm speed
  • Cache is physically addressed, solving many cache aliasing problems and reducing context switch overhead
  • Unaligned and mixed-endian data access is supported
  • Reduced heat production and lower overheating risk
  • Redesigned pipeline, supporting faster clock speeds (target up to 1 GHz)
    • Longer: 8 (vs 5) stages
    • Out-of-order completion for some operations (e.g. stores)
    • Dynamic branch prediction/folding (like XScale)
    • Cache misses don't block execution of non-dependent instructions
    • Load/store parallelism
    • ALU parallelism
  • 64-bit data paths

JTAG debug support (for halting, stepping, breakpoints, and watchpoints) was simplified. The EmbeddedICE module was replaced with an interface which became part of the ARMv7 architecture. The hardware tracing modules (ETM and ETB) are compatible, but updated, versions of those used in the ARM9. In particular, trace semantics were updated to address parallel instruction execution and data transfers.

ARM makes an effort to promote good Verilog coding styles and techniques. This ensures semantically rigorous designs, preserving identical semantics throughout the chip design flow, which included extensive use of formal verification techniques. Without such attention, integrating an ARM11 with third party designs could risk exposing hard-to-find latent bugs. Due to ARM cores being integrated into many different designs, using a variety of logic synthesis tools and chip manufacturing processes, the impact of its register-transfer level (RTL) quality is magnified many times.[3] The ARM11 generation focused more on synthesis than previous generations, making such concerns be more of an issue.

[edit]Cores

There are four ARM11 cores:

  • ARM1136[4]
  • ARM1156, introduced Thumb2 instructions
  • ARM1176, introduced security extensions[5]
  • ARM11MPcore, introduced multicore support

PICA200

Specification

  • 65 nm Single Core [7](max. clock frequency 400 MHz)
    • pixel performance: 800 Mpixel/s[7]
      • 400 Mpixel/s @100 MHz[2]
      • 1600 Mpixel/s @400 MHz
    • vertex performance: 15.3 Mpolygon/s[7]
      • 40Mtriangle/s @100 MHz[2]
      • 160Mtriangle/s @400 MHz
  • Power consumption: 0.5-1.0 mW/MHz[2]
  • Frame Buffer max. 4095×4095 pixels
  • Supported pixel formats: RGBA 4-4-4-4, RGB 5-6-5, RGBA 5-5-5-1, RGBA 8-8-8-8
  • Vertex program (ARB_vertex_program)
  • Render-to-Texture
  • MipMap
  • Bilinear texture filtering
  • Alpha blending
  • Full-scene anti-aliasing (2×2)
  • Polygon offset
  • 8-bit stencil buffer
  • 24-bit depth buffer
  • Single/Double/Triple buffer
  • DMP's MAESTRO-2G technology
    • per pixel lighting
    • procedural texture
    • refraction mapping
    • subdivision primitive
    • shadow
    • gaseous object rendering