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Forums - Gaming Discussion - 720 will Decide if WiiU RAM is enough.

dahuman on 18 April 2013
Mazty said:
dahuman said:

To be fair, I doubt the Samaritan demo can run that well on the PS4 lol, not to mention that demo runs on UE3 and not UE4 you silly goose. :P


Oh yah I know it runs on UE3; I was just running with the idea that UE3 is more suited for the Wii U rather than UE4 as Epic rather vocally stated.

Slightly off topic but what kind of GPU performance would you put the PS4 on par with if you had to take a guess? 


If you are talking about gaming performance, I'm estimating 7970 levels on PC if done right(1st party efforts during 2nd gen games and maybe 3rd and 4th gen games for 3rd party, then opt for tricks and coding abilities later down the line much like the 7th gen once raw power is too close to the peak), and it always has the option to run in 720p if the rendering power is not enough for 1080p, the advantage is the fixed spec and resolution.



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Mazty on 18 April 2013
happydolphin said:
Mazty said:

Coming from the guy who has no technical knowledge or experience with high end graphics or the hardware......1) Yeah sure, it's my argument that sucks.....

2) No it's not possible because the average quality will get ramped up for the PS4, and not stay within 7th gen realms. 3) Why are you pretending that the Wii U is compatible with PS4 games? It's not. Do you own a Wii U or something and are trying to justify your purchase?

UE4 is being ported to tablets in a considerably scaled down version. 4) If you think you'll get anything close to even the Samaritan demo on tablets you have no idea what you are on about. Epic have already said UE4 is not for the Wii U. 5) Didn't you catch that one?
http://uk.gamespot.com/events/gdc-2013/story.html?sid=6406190

6) Yeah. Enjoy. Since when have games for the PS3 and 360 been scaled BACKWARDS to work on the PS2 or xbox? That is what you are suggesting. Games will be scaled backwards to play on the Wii U. They won't. It's never happened and won't happen.
See. I said you don't know what you are on about and 7) *shock horror* I was right. And there isn't a buisness case for it. It's more effort than it's worth and is something that has never, ever been done. 

1) Your arguments suck, because they just inherrently do, irrespective of your perception of my knowledge on the matter. But your perception does not allow you to understand the depths of just how wrong you are, so it's a lost cause.

2) What is not possible?

3)  I'm not, it's a fact. Since Metro Last Light and Crysis 3 are considered gen 9 and PS4 is gen 8 (PER YOUR OWN POST) , then if PS3 can play scaled down versions of PC games, then so can the U,  since they are on par. No pretending here, just logic.

4) I think the word scaled down flaked out of your logical circuit. In other words, the games can be playable on the tablets, only stripped of many fancy features.

5) Can you link me to the post where I said Wii U was being supported by UE4? Also, I hope you realize the U is stronger than most current tablets. Or are you willing to say that the PS3 is weaker than tablets, sony fan that you are?

6) You are in a dream world. It's happening today (see point 3, using your own logic).

7) Shock horror indeed, you logic that is.

1)Please keep this argument mature.
2)The downscaling required will result in a different product rather than a less resource intensive product
3)I said PCs are 9th gen, not those games. Strawman argument.
4)UE4 is not for Wii U, ergo you won't be getting UE4 games on Wii U. Unless Epic games are wrong. Lol. 
5)Lolwut. Again, UE4 not for Wii U. 
6)No it's not. Metro isn't appearing on PS2. Or Wii U. Read closely as you have failed to grasp this point - games made for the 8th gen will not be made for the 7th gen which is what you are saying it will be. That has never happened and will not happen. 

Why are you arguing about a topic you have no experience or knowledge about? What makes you think you have a valid opinion? What possess someone to argue about a topic they do not understand? How can you take your own opinion seriously when you have no experience to do with high end graphics and no technical understanding of how graphics work?
Would you participate in a meeting wherever you work (I presume you work) on a project you know nothing about?



happydolphin on 18 April 2013
Mazty said:

1)Please keep this argument mature.
2)The downscaling required will result in a different product rather than a less resource intensive product
3)I said PCs are 9th gen, not those games. Strawman argument.
4)UE4 is not for Wii U, ergo you won't be getting UE4 games on Wii U. Unless Epic games are wrong. Lol. 
5)Lolwut. Again, UE4 not for Wii U. 
6)No it's not. Metro isn't appearing on PS2. Or Wii U. Read closely as you have failed to grasp this point - games made for the 8th gen will not be made for the 7th gen which is what you are saying it will be. That has never happened and will not happen. 

7) Why are you arguing about a topic you have no experience or knowledge about? What makes you think you have a valid opinion? What possess someone to argue about a topic they do not understand? How can you take your own opinion seriously when you have no experience to do with high end graphics and no technical understanding of how graphics work?

1) Too late.
2) That depends on your definition of product.
3) That means nothing. So you're telling me that PCs are 9th gen buts its games aren't? Sure man.
4) My point was that it's scalable to tablets (and hence would be scalable to WiiU).
5) Again, find post where I said it was getting ported to U. Laugh at yourself.
6) You fail at vghistory, it is a fact that gen 7 games were supported on gen 6 platforms for at least 2 years into this gen. Games like Madden continued to be released on the PS2. See, you're wrong. Also, Metro Last Light is appearing on the PS3, which is my point. On max settings it's a gen 8 game, but it can be run on a gen 7 machine.
7) Because I have enough knowledge to prove you wrong and put you to shame, and that's all I want right now, because of your behavior in this thread. I want you to feel bad for behaving like a pretentious duchebag who has as only ability to put others down on assumptions such as that I lack information or that I'm reaching when come this far I think is quite clear is a false assumption. If someone with my limited knowledge can prove you wrong, then I hope you feel very very bad about putting me down.



Mazty on 18 April 2013
happydolphin said:
Mazty said:

1)Please keep this argument mature.
2)The downscaling required will result in a different product rather than a less resource intensive product
3)I said PCs are 9th gen, not those games. Strawman argument.
4)UE4 is not for Wii U, ergo you won't be getting UE4 games on Wii U. Unless Epic games are wrong. Lol. 
5)Lolwut. Again, UE4 not for Wii U. 
6)No it's not. Metro isn't appearing on PS2. Or Wii U. Read closely as you have failed to grasp this point - games made for the 8th gen will not be made for the 7th gen which is what you are saying it will be. That has never happened and will not happen. 

7) Why are you arguing about a topic you have no experience or knowledge about? What makes you think you have a valid opinion? What possess someone to argue about a topic they do not understand? How can you take your own opinion seriously when you have no experience to do with high end graphics and no technical understanding of how graphics work?

1) Too late.
2) That depends on your definition of product.
3) That means nothing. So you're telling me that PCs are 9th gen buts its games aren't? Sure man.
4) My point was that it's scalable to tablets (and hence would be scalable to WiiU).
5) Again, find post where I said it was getting ported to U. Laugh at yourself.
6) You fail at vghistory, it is a fact that gen 7 games were supported on gen 6 platforms for at least 2 years into this gen. Games like Madden continued to be released on the PS2. See, you're wrong. Also, Metro Last Light is appearing on the PS3, which is my point. On max settings it's a gen 8 game, but it can be run on a gen 7 machine.
7) Because I have enough knowledge to prove you wrong and put you to shame, and that's all I want right now, because of your behavior in this thread. I want you to feel bad for behaving like a pretentious duchebag who has as only ability to put others down on assumptions such as that I lack information or that I'm reaching when come this far I think is quite clear is a false assumption. If someone with my limited knowledge can prove you wrong, then I hope you feel very very bad about putting me down.

1)Good going. 
2)

prod·uct  

/ˈprädəkt/ 
Noun
  1. An article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale.

3)No, the games are not 9th gen...You have no idea about graphics. Just stop replying dude, why are you talking about something you don't understand and have no experience with?
4)Why did Epic games say then that UE4 isn't coming to Wii U? Explain that one.
5)Why are you going on about UE4 and tablets then? 
6)6th gen games went to the 7th gen e.g. NFS: Most Wanted. NFS: Most Wanted was not found on the PS1. The best the Wii U will get is multiplatforms that are seen on the PS3/360 and use very little extra power on the 8th gen consoles. If you understood how graphics works, this would make sense
7)You have no knowledge, technical or personal regarding graphics. You've only proven yourself to be pretentious, and not knowledgable in the slightest.



happydolphin on 18 April 2013
Mazty said:

1)Good going. 
2)

prod·uct  

/ˈprädəkt/ 

 

Noun
  1. An article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale.

3)No, the games are not 9th gen...You have no idea about graphics. Just stop replying dude, why are you talking about something you don't understand and have no experience with?
4)Why did Epic games say then that UE4 isn't coming to Wii U? Explain that one.
5)Why are you going on about UE4 and tablets then? 
6)6th gen games went to the 7th gen e.g. NFS: Most Wanted. NFS: Most Wanted was not found on the PS1. The best the Wii U will get is multiplatforms that are seen on the PS3/360 and use very little extra power on the 8th gen consoles. If you understood how graphics works, this would make sense
7)You have no knowledge, technical or personal regarding graphics. You've only proven yourself to be pretentious, and not knowledgable in the slightest.

1) That was your fault. I asked you a long time ago to keep the Ad hominems out and you failed. So good on you.
2) And how does THAT add anything to your point?
3) So what defines a 9th gen game, pray tell.
4) Did you find the link yet?
5) Because if UE4 is scalable to tablets, then it sure as hell is scalable to WiiU.
6) If you understood how intelligence worked, you would understand that this argument was case closed at Madden 2008 and needed no further comment.
7) I have proven this far, point by point, that you are wrong. And I hope you know that I won't stop until you're totally humiliated.



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DieAppleDie on 18 April 2013

Uhh, that Mazty has too much knowledge for you to handle, poor Dolphin ...its finished, look at it, he doesnt even know what a product is...
plus hes arguing against a being thats pure knowledge with a human? shape...



happydolphin on 18 April 2013
DieAppleDie said:
Uhh, that Mazty has too much knowledge for you to handle, poor Dolphin ...its finished, look at it, he doesnt even know what a product is...
plus hes arguing against a being thats pure knowledge with a human? shape...

Apparently he doesn't even realize he's contradicting himself. Or dancing around the facts, either or.

Following point 6, take a look at this:

Mazty said:

Yeah. Enjoy. Since when have games for the PS3 and 360 been scaled BACKWARDS to work on the PS2 or xbox? That is what you are suggesting. Games will be scaled backwards to play on the Wii U. They won't. It's never happened and won't happen.
See. I said you don't know what you are on about and *shock horror* I was right. And there isn't a buisness case for it. It's more effort than it's worth and is something that has never, ever been done. 

Now this

happydolphin said:

6) You fail at vghistory, it is a fact that gen 7 games were supported on gen 6 platforms for at least 2 years into this gen. Games like Madden continued to be released on the PS2. See, you're wrong. Also, Metro Last Light is appearing on the PS3, which is my point. On max settings it's a gen 8 game, but it can be run on a gen 7 machine.

Now this

Mazty said:

6)6th gen games went to the 7th gen e.g. NFS: Most Wanted. NFS: Most Wanted was not found on the PS1. The best the Wii U will get is multiplatforms that are seen on the PS3/360 and use very little extra power on the 8th gen consoles. If you understood how graphics works, this would make sense

It's quite comical actually.



Mazty on 18 April 2013
happydolphin said:
Mazty said:

1)Good going. 
2)

prod·uct  

/ˈprädəkt/ 

 

Noun
  1. An article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale.

3)No, the games are not 9th gen...You have no idea about graphics. Just stop replying dude, why are you talking about something you don't understand and have no experience with?
4)Why did Epic games say then that UE4 isn't coming to Wii U? Explain that one.
5)Why are you going on about UE4 and tablets then? 
6)6th gen games went to the 7th gen e.g. NFS: Most Wanted. NFS: Most Wanted was not found on the PS1. The best the Wii U will get is multiplatforms that are seen on the PS3/360 and use very little extra power on the 8th gen consoles. If you understood how graphics works, this would make sense
7)You have no knowledge, technical or personal regarding graphics. You've only proven yourself to be pretentious, and not knowledgable in the slightest.

1) That was your fault. I asked you a long time ago to keep the Ad hominems out and you failed. So good on you.
2) And how does THAT add anything to your point?
3) So what defines a 9th gen game, pray tell.
4) Did you find the link yet?
5) Because if UE4 is scalable to tablets, then it sure as hell is scalable to WiiU.
6) If you understood how intelligence worked, you would understand that this argument was case closed at Madden 2008 and needed no further comment.
7) I have proben this far, point by point, that you are wrong.

What ad hominems? Stating that you lack knowledge on this topic, which you do, is relevant to this topic, is it not? Ignorance is to do with level of knowledge and it not an insult - that is you misunderstanding the word.

You wanted a definition. Having to scale PS4 games down to the Wii U/7th gen hardware would change the product so much that it would be a different product. You can't expect to hop from 8gb RAM to 1, a considerably inferior GPU and CPU, with a HDD not being standard and expect it to be comparible. 

9th gen would be what succeeds the 8th gen. Maybe something like Last Light on Ultra with all the bells and whistles would be 9th gen, but then again maybe it's just peak 8th gen? Hard to say. 

UE4 is NOT COMING TO THE WII U. It's not made for the Wii U. As far as Epic are concerned, the Wii U is 7th gen. 

Obviously you are unaware of the tech gap between the PS4 and Wii U. Fact is the Wii U is miles behind the PS4. Now if a game is made for the PS4, how could they scale it down to the Wii U? You are loosing the HDD, ~6 cores and 6 GB of RAM, and going to a considerably inferior GPU and CPU. 
Explain how you that leap could be made. 

You have proven that you don't know anything about technology or even the industry. Since when did CoD 4 or any "made for 7th gen" game appear on a 6th gen console? 

Why are you arguing something you have no experience in or understanding of? What is your reasoning for arguing instead of listening?



happydolphin on 18 April 2013
Mazty said:

1) What ad hominems? Stating that you lack knowledge on this topic, which you do, is relevant to this topic, is it not? Ignorance is to do with level of knowledge and it not an insult - that is you misunderstanding the word.

2) You wanted a definition. Having to scale PS4 games down to the Wii U/7th gen hardware would change the product so much that it would be a different product. You can't expect to hop from 8gb RAM to 1, a considerably inferior GPU and CPU, with a HDD not being standard and expect it to be comparible. 

3) 9th gen would be what succeeds the 8th gen. Maybe something like Last Light on Ultra with all the bells and whistles would be 9th gen, but then again maybe it's just peak 8th gen? Hard to say. 

4) UE4 is NOT COMING TO THE WII U. It's not made for the Wii U. As far as Epic are concerned, the Wii U is 7th gen. 

5) Obviously you are unaware of the tech gap between the PS4 and Wii U. Fact is the Wii U is miles behind the PS4. Now if a game is made for the PS4, how could they scale it down to the Wii U? You are loosing the HDD, ~6 cores and 6 GB of RAM, and going to a considerably inferior GPU and CPU. 
Explain how you that leap could be made. 

6) You have proven that you don't know anything about technology or even the industry. Since when did CoD 4 or any "made for 7th gen" game appear on a 6th gen console? 

Why are you arguing something you have no experience in or understanding of? What is your reasoning for arguing instead of listening?

1) You don't know what Ad hominem means. Ad hominem = towards person. In other words, rather than arguing my points, you're simply discrediting my knowledge, which itself should be apparent in my posts. So you're not only defeating the purpose, but you're also making it excessively difficult to have a mature argument. You wanted mature, your strategy is inadequate. It is technically not an insult to call someone an ignorant, but using ad hominem rather than addressing points leads to insulting posts and non-constructive debates. SO CHANGE. Yes, I want you to change.

2) And that's why I said it depends on your definition of a "different" product, what constitutes enough change to break that barrier of "Same product/different product", that's what I was asking for. Instead you gave me the definition of product.... Now you understand why I'm upset. Also, you have no proof of it being a different product, and laid no ground rules. That's what I'm asking for and you can't provide it because you yourself don't know. If you did, we'd have this covered 8 posts back.

3) Last light on top settings... Isn't that what I said like 20 posts ago? Please understand my aggravation.

4) I asked you for a link where I said UE4 was coming to the U. I asked for it because, you know... I NEVER SAID THAT!! And you haven't figured that out yet. Not only did you fuck that up, but you can't even own up to it. That's why I'm pissed.

5) If the leap could be made from the PS3 to the PS2 with games like madden, then it sure as hell can be made from the PS4 to the U. No matter what kind of constraint you pull, the fact of the matter is that it's doable. They will have to sacrifice certain features, but other than that it's possible. As for the HDD missing, that has, as far as I understood it, no impact in terms of rendering. It was my understanding that game speed was dependent on RAM, not HDD memory.

6) I gave you madden, that should be enough. But you ask for COD. Okay, I'll serve you COD. You consider the Wii on par with gen 6 am I correct? As far as I know, COD was also delivered on the Wii, albeit downscaled. That was all the Modern Warfares and Black Ops, available on Wii. You will say this was a different product, and for COD I will agree with you, exceptionally, because it is an FPS and requires a high resolution (HD) to see small shapes. However, that will no longer be true on U, which is HD. For one, this answers your question, albeit Madden was sufficient.

7) My reason for arguing is that I know I'm right, and I'm just looking to show that arguments speak louder than pretenses. You are working off pretenses, I am working off arguments. Let's see what wins, but I know what does. I'm much older than you after all, and I actually work in the field.



Zero999 on 18 April 2013
Captain_Tom said:
FuelledByHatred said:
Captain_Tom said:
FuelledByHatred said:

Nobody on here seems to have considered one thing that could be very important to how games scale. Native Resolution.

NextBox and PS4 are targeting 1080p as native resolution for all games, where as Wii U is targeting 720p Native for it's games.  It is entirely plausible that ports of PS4/Xbox games will be able to run on the Wii U's more modest hardware because games will be less resource intensive when running at lower resolutions, with either more compressed or lower res textures needing significantly less RAM.  It is afterall how most PC games are actually scaled.

My laptop is a perfect example. It is nowhere near the performance of say a high end gaming PC, it has a 1.5Ghz Quadcore AMD, an HD7670M and yes, admittedly 8GB of RAM, however; even when running games i've never used more than 3 GB and that is with a bloated Windows OS running.  I cannot hope to run games at max settings @ 1080p. Witcher 2 for example i get about 12FPS, but if i drop the settings to medium and the resolution to 1366x768p @ 30FPS i get something that looks inferior to max settings but is still a gorgeous looking game to play.  A game that at those settings (and even on low) still looks much better than the Xbox 360 version, running on a laptop whose specs are close to what is inside the Wii U.  In fact in a closed console environment the Wii U probably out performs my laptop games-wise.

So my question is if PC developers can scale games across such a huge divide in technological capabilities then why can't they for the "Next Gen" consoles?

Here are the specs for Metro Last Light http://www.destructoid.com/optimum-metro-last-light-specs-recommend-an-nvidia-titan-251890.phtml Now if 4A can scale across such a massive technological chasm then surely it is not asking too much for scaled ports on Wii U, yes they will be graphically "inferior" but not to the degree that people probably think and it will certainly not be a Wii vs PS3 situation this time round.  On paper the PS4 and Xbox will be 2-3x more powerful than Wii U, yes, but people don't seem to realise that the law of diminshing returns has kicked in for games developers, meaning that 2-3x on paper will not be 2-3x in practice because 1; large increases in computational power are only producing small visual gains and 2; devs (outside of those SONY or MS  funded) are quickly finding that they cannot be profitable with the amount of time, effort and money it takes to make games that will push PS4 and NextBox to the limits.  It gets to the point where things become so detailed that it takes too much time and you would be looking at Disney Pixar sized budgets, which EA and Square-Enix are finding simply not feasible.   

But we won't have to wait long really to begin seeing how things shape up.  The release of Watch Dogs on PS4 and Wii U will be a good barometer as to whether the gap between the two is as big as some are saying.  The ultimate comparison will be when Retro's new game (Metroid) is compared with something like KZ Shadowfall.  Only then will we see just how big this gap will be.

The thing is, you fail to realize is that the Wii U's GPU is less than half the strength of the minimum one, and the PS4's is about on par with the recomended.  In addition to that, 4A games said the Wii U's too slow to handle the game lol.  It's like you are trying to prove yourself wrong!

Not at all i used Metro Last Light as an example of how games can scale across a massive range of technologies not what can be scaled specifically to Wii U. I assume you can read? My actual example of how games may run was more my laptop specs which FYI can run Metro at about 25-35 FPS on mid settings and i as previously stated is less capable than a Wii U in terms of graphical output due to the closed nature and less resource sapping console environment, but I saw it as a good comparison because working on calculations to work out TFlops and taking into account greater access to resources in a console, i thought it work as a close enough match.

Secondly saying that the Wii U GPU is less than half the strength of a GTS 250 is pretty bogus claim. In a PC SETUP it would be 3/4 the power of a GTS 250, yes, but in a closed console environment it's an apples to oranges comparison, especially when you're comparing off the shelf components to heavily modified custom components. It's like saying an Xbox 360 shouldn't be able to run The Witcher 2 because it's GPU falls below the PC minimum spec.  It is a ridculous things to say.  My post was in fact more about trying to get across how far games are able to be scaled.  I was not trying to go into the nuts and bolts of specs and directly comparing them.  What you don't seem to realise is that comparing off the shelf parts used in a console to the same off the shelf parts used in a PC is utterly pointless, the level of performance that can be gleaned from a piece of silicon in a console is far greater than that of it's PC equivalent. 

Thirdly the point i was actually trying to make was that people so far have not taken into account at all what effect games being run at 1080p not 720p on GPU tech that, yes is a lot better than old tech but isn't light years ahead, especially compared to the same games running at 720p on Wii U hardware. (On a side note, It would not surprise me at all if you see resolutions slip below the 1080p standard the longer the "next" generation goes on as consoles struggle to keep up with the advances in PC hardware and rendering techniques.)

As for what 4A said if you truely believe that statement then fair enough, but please don't try and use it in this argument when that comment was actually made about the CPU NOT the GPU.  Which in itself probably says more about their unwillingness or inability to optimise code than it does about Wii U hardware. 4A's Metro Engine is widely acknowledged as being one of the least optimised engines out there. 

I was also trying to put across the point that Wii U (being 1.5-2x the power of a 360, GPU-wise) will be probably be able to run scaled down 720p ports of 1080p PS4 games but with a decrease in resolution and in the quality of things like lighting, alpha effects, particle effects, shadow mapping and AA.  They would be by no means "ugly" games but wouldn't be up to the quality of PS4 titles. It would be possible, but whether developers have the time, interest, expertise or potential financial gains, remains to be seen.

One last thing, I'm not trying to get into some kind of mud slinging match but i would like to ask that next time you decide to slap someone down and belittle their post, you make sure you actually understand what that person is trying to say.  Try and back up your counter argument with something a little more than a put down, unsubstantiated  "facts" and a misquote that is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion or point someone has made or trying to make.


LOL where do I start:

1) My claim in performance is not "bogus."  The Wii U basically has a cut down 6570 with DDR3, that IS half the strength of a GTS 250 at least.  

2) If the Wii U gets "Optimized" performance gains, than so does the GPU in the PS4 making the gap just as wide and your point irrelevent.  

3)No matter how you dice it, EA, 4A, Deep Silver, and other developers and publishers don't think the Wii U's weak specs is worth their time.  Whether its because they are "Lazy," or the Wii U is a console built by drunks is up for debate, but the end result is NO GAMES.

4) I understand what you are saying and it is: ill-informed, naive, and lacks support.  

you say that based on? oh right, based on nothing.