By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sports Discussion - Greek football player banned for life for Nazi salute.

 

Is a life ban for Nazi salute, too harsh?

Yes. Political correctness is to blame. 114 54.55%
 
No. He deserved the life ban. 47 22.49%
 
No. He got away lightly. 14 6.70%
 
Do not care. 32 15.31%
 
Total:207

It really beats me why there are so many people in the West who claim that Poland is racist or antisemitic, while in reality it really isn't an issue here.

Did you see the image shown of your country supporters in English media before Euro 2012?



Around the Network
Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:

Greek youth are becoming more right wing as their financial crisis continues, they gather around the banner of the Golden Dawn (Nazi's) which have won some seats in parliament, Greeks are quite anti-foreigner, and anti-minority (They don't offically recognise other races in Greece), it's quite a racist country, more so than any other EU country, although their are some in Greece trying hard to control these influences

What that man did wasn't an accident

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_06/03/2013_486010

Eh.  Greece has a huge racism problem, but more then any other country feels like an exageration

What with Poland, Bolgaria and such.

Now what are you trying to suggest here?

 

I think the penalty is deserved. I think you really have to be retarded to believe a 20-yo European wouldn't know what this gesture means. It's a pity that such a cool Roman sign was turned into something representing such evil.

That Poland is quite racist.

As for a 20 year old europeon... hell, even a 20 year old american would DEFINITLY know what that was. 


I mean, America loves WW2.  The history channel used to be nothing but WW2 because WW2 was the history americans liked most because WW2 is one of the biggest points in US history... espeically from the "Great country" narrative since the Nazis were essentially as far "universally evil" as you are ever going to get.

And you base that on?

Milawa riots and general treatment of the Roma, various racist incidents involving poland in soccer games.

Though looking at it, it does look like they've seen a decrease recently, so good on them.  Good to hear I am part Polish afterall.

What's Milawa riots? I've never heard of it. Even google isn't helping.

Roma? You are clearly mistaking countries. They are a serious issue in Slovakia, Czech Republic and maybe Romania and Hungary, but not in Poland. Also I can't recall a single racist incident in Polish football games and being Polish I watch all games our boys play :) In fact there was one African player who got Polish citisenship after a huge social outcry, cause he was so popular that everyone wanted him to play for us:

I might not have spelled it correctly since it's been off, but in the early 90's the a number of polish people riotied and attacked Roma people.


Ah here it is  I added an I in there for no reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%82awa_pogrom

 

As for Soccer....

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/09/sports/la-sp-baxter-soccer-20120610

http://world.time.com/2012/06/08/euro-2012-racist-abuse-of-dutch-players-in-poland-clouds-soccer-tournament/

 

As for soccer games.



Goatseye said:

It really beats me why there are so many people in the West who claim that Poland is racist or antisemitic, while in reality it really isn't an issue here.

Did you see the image shown of your country supporters in English media before Euro 2012?

Yeah, I did. It was just disgusting. Shocking how far people can go in the time of a financial crisis just to persuade other people to spend their money in England (on the Olympic Games) and not abroad (EURO in Poland-Ukraine). Pityful and actually quite humiliating for the British. The statement about returning in coffins made by Sol Campbell is my personal favourite in this "documentary". Also you have to remember that you're talking about a different country with a different history and culture and some of the stuff that comes as shocking or insulting to you is not considered like that over here, so it was very easy for them to make this movie and make it all look that much scarier.



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.

... it was very easy for them to make this movie and make it all look that much scarier.

Welcome to the Media New World Order working since the cold war era... effectively.



This thing is SO fucking stupid. Greeks resent all the nazi.



Around the Network

Too much, I dont think it even deserves a punishment.

Anyway, the greek football federation has the right to do whatever they want if they respect FIFA rules, this is not a legal thing as far as I know and it falls under private orb.



Kasz216 said:
Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:

Greek youth are becoming more right wing as their financial crisis continues, they gather around the banner of the Golden Dawn (Nazi's) which have won some seats in parliament, Greeks are quite anti-foreigner, and anti-minority (They don't offically recognise other races in Greece), it's quite a racist country, more so than any other EU country, although their are some in Greece trying hard to control these influences

What that man did wasn't an accident

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_06/03/2013_486010

Eh.  Greece has a huge racism problem, but more then any other country feels like an exageration

What with Poland, Bolgaria and such.

Now what are you trying to suggest here?

 

I think the penalty is deserved. I think you really have to be retarded to believe a 20-yo European wouldn't know what this gesture means. It's a pity that such a cool Roman sign was turned into something representing such evil.

That Poland is quite racist.

As for a 20 year old europeon... hell, even a 20 year old american would DEFINITLY know what that was. 


I mean, America loves WW2.  The history channel used to be nothing but WW2 because WW2 was the history americans liked most because WW2 is one of the biggest points in US history... espeically from the "Great country" narrative since the Nazis were essentially as far "universally evil" as you are ever going to get.

And you base that on?

Milawa riots and general treatment of the Roma, various racist incidents involving poland in soccer games.

Though looking at it, it does look like they've seen a decrease recently, so good on them.  Good to hear I am part Polish afterall.

What's Milawa riots? I've never heard of it. Even google isn't helping.

Roma? You are clearly mistaking countries. They are a serious issue in Slovakia, Czech Republic and maybe Romania and Hungary, but not in Poland. Also I can't recall a single racist incident in Polish football games and being Polish I watch all games our boys play :) In fact there was one African player who got Polish citisenship after a huge social outcry, cause he was so popular that everyone wanted him to play for us:

I might not have spelled it correctly since it's been off, but in the early 90's the a number of polish people riotied and attacked Roma people.


Ah here it is  I added an I in there for no reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%82awa_pogrom

 

As for Soccer....

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/09/sports/la-sp-baxter-soccer-20120610

http://world.time.com/2012/06/08/euro-2012-racist-abuse-of-dutch-players-in-poland-clouds-soccer-tournament/

 

As for soccer games.

The Polish Wikipedia site for the Roma incident is actually much more informative and gives you more insight into the matter. If you read it, you'll see that it actually wasn't what the English Wikipedia says. This guy hit two people with a car and killed one of them (a Polish soldier), after that he run away without helping them. What was worse, this was 1991 - just after we regained independence and were going from communism to capitalism, which was a very, very difficult period, 35% of people there were unemployed and these Roma were actually wealthy. More importantly though, the government had no authority among the people, there were some conflicts in the city that resulted in a blockade of the whole city and in general in the 90s the goverment didn't have much authority, just like in any trasitional period. But most importantly - a different Roma caused a car accident a year earlier and avoided any kind of punishment (and we're talking about a very small city). So this is quite easy to see, that it wasn't rasism or being anti-Roma, but there was a different reason behind this. People thought that they would use their money and influence once again to avoid punishment and didn't want that to happen. The Wikipedia site also says, that not a single person was hurt and the people weren't at all interested in the poor Roma, just went after the rich ones, which is a crown proof that it wasn't rasizm, since if you're a rasist, you don't care about the material status of the one you hate. It was just the poor seeking justice vs. the rich in times when the goverment and courts have no authority. I really believe that unlike in Slovakia or Czech Republic, there are no racial issues with the Roma.

 

@football - let's face it, stuff like that happens everywhere. Even your article says that somebody threw bananas at Balotelli in a bar in Rome. John Terry also faced a trial because of racism. Kobe Bryant called a ref a faggot last season. Stuff like that happens, it's bad and should be punished, but you can't compare that or a few idiots going to an open practice and making monkey sounds to what's happening in Greece, France, Germany or Russia, where people are persecuting, actually hurting or even killing immigrants, devastating Jewish cementaries, etc. Such stuff is not a problem in Poland and we really are victims of unfair blowing things out of proportion.



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.

Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:

Greek youth are becoming more right wing as their financial crisis continues, they gather around the banner of the Golden Dawn (Nazi's) which have won some seats in parliament, Greeks are quite anti-foreigner, and anti-minority (They don't offically recognise other races in Greece), it's quite a racist country, more so than any other EU country, although their are some in Greece trying hard to control these influences

What that man did wasn't an accident

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_06/03/2013_486010

Eh.  Greece has a huge racism problem, but more then any other country feels like an exageration

What with Poland, Bolgaria and such.

Now what are you trying to suggest here?

 

I think the penalty is deserved. I think you really have to be retarded to believe a 20-yo European wouldn't know what this gesture means. It's a pity that such a cool Roman sign was turned into something representing such evil.

That Poland is quite racist.

As for a 20 year old europeon... hell, even a 20 year old american would DEFINITLY know what that was. 


I mean, America loves WW2.  The history channel used to be nothing but WW2 because WW2 was the history americans liked most because WW2 is one of the biggest points in US history... espeically from the "Great country" narrative since the Nazis were essentially as far "universally evil" as you are ever going to get.

And you base that on?

Milawa riots and general treatment of the Roma, various racist incidents involving poland in soccer games.

Though looking at it, it does look like they've seen a decrease recently, so good on them.  Good to hear I am part Polish afterall.

What's Milawa riots? I've never heard of it. Even google isn't helping.

Roma? You are clearly mistaking countries. They are a serious issue in Slovakia, Czech Republic and maybe Romania and Hungary, but not in Poland. Also I can't recall a single racist incident in Polish football games and being Polish I watch all games our boys play :) In fact there was one African player who got Polish citisenship after a huge social outcry, cause he was so popular that everyone wanted him to play for us:

I might not have spelled it correctly since it's been off, but in the early 90's the a number of polish people riotied and attacked Roma people.


Ah here it is  I added an I in there for no reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%82awa_pogrom

 

As for Soccer....

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/09/sports/la-sp-baxter-soccer-20120610

http://world.time.com/2012/06/08/euro-2012-racist-abuse-of-dutch-players-in-poland-clouds-soccer-tournament/

 

As for soccer games.

The Polish Wikipedia site for the Roma incident is actually much more informative and gives you more insight into the matter. If you read it, you'll see that it actually wasn't what the English Wikipedia says. This guy hit two people with a car and killed one of them (a Polish soldier), after that he run away without helping them. What was worse, this was 1991 - just after we regained independence and were going from communism to capitalism, which was a very, very difficult period, 35% of people there were unemployed and these Roma were actually wealthy. More importantly though, the government had no authority among the people, there were some conflicts in the city that resulted in a blockade of the whole city and in general in the 90s the goverment didn't have much authority, just like in any trasitional period. But most importantly - a different Roma caused a car accident a year earlier and avoided any kind of punishment (and we're talking about a very small city). So this is quite easy to see, that it wasn't rasism or being anti-Roma, but there was a different reason behind this. People thought that they would use their money and influence once again to avoid punishment and didn't want that to happen. The Wikipedia site also says, that not a single person was hurt and the people weren't at all interested in the poor Roma, just went after the rich ones, which is a crown proof that it wasn't rasizm, since if you're a rasist, you don't care about the material status of the one you hate. It was just the poor seeking justice vs. the rich in times when the goverment and courts have no authority. I really believe that unlike in Slovakia or Czech Republic, there are no racial issues with the Roma.

 

@football - let's face it, stuff like that happens everywhere. Even your article says that somebody threw bananas at Balotelli in a bar in Rome. John Terry also faced a trial because of racism. Kobe Bryant called a ref a faggot last season. Stuff like that happens, it's bad and should be punished, but you can't compare that or a few idiots going to an open practice and making monkey sounds to what's happening in Greece, France, Germany or Russia, where people are persecuting, actually hurting or even killing immigrants, devastating Jewish cementaries, etc. Such stuff is not a problem in Poland and we really are victims of unfair blowing things out of proportion.


A)  He ran because the other people at the scene were going to lynch him.  So yeah... kinda to be expected.  Outside that, the rest of what you wrote is completely untrue.  In the LA race riots... around the same time (1994)... Black people rioted over the Rodney King Verdict.   They mostly only attacked Rich Koreans Americans stores.   It wasn't just because they were rich, there were plenty of other rich people to.

They attacked the Koreans because they were racist, seeing the Koreans as rich outsiders who were getting rich off their people, late comers who "jumped the line."

 

B) Racism happens everywhere sure... 133 racist incidents over the period of 2 years however?

Thatt sounds pretty high to me.  Like I said though.  There more recent numbers outside of football do look pretty decent.  No need to try and whitewash the problems that still do exist.



Scisca said:
Goatseye said:
ThatGreekGuy said:
And Greece doesn't have a racism problem, it's more of an immigration problem.
In no way do I, or many people I know, support Golden Dawn and their nazi politican views. They just beat up and kill immigrants. The only reason they exist is because stupid 18 years olds and old people voted them.
Many people don't like the immigrants because they're illegal there, take all the jobs (Gas stations and supermarkets).


The right wingers explictly said if someone sees a dark skinned person walking in the streets to call them and they will solve the "problem". The right wingers are the mirror of Greek frustration and they are omnipresnt in today's Greek society. An olympic athlete was banned for life from the Olympics because she had a very insulting remark towards Africans.

Considering the whole "Respect" campaign by FIFA, this guy can't be surprised and should be banned for life by FIFA, not just the Greek federation. Even more if you consider that nowadays in Europe football is the substitute of war...

Considering you comment I don't know wether nazis or guys like you are the real danger,saying that as someone whie grandpa was imprisoned by nazis.I'd rather be beaten up twice a day by a nazi or be shot in the head than living in a world where a guy like you make the laws and people are banned for life because of  a stupid handsign

On the one hand you call football a war-substitute on the other hand you will bann someone for life for a stupid sign?Seems you don't know what war is.If football is a war substitute than a fascist sign is for sure one of the mildest things you can expect in war.

Considering the fifa respect campaign your comment is bullcrap,as it is not that guys fault that fifa is making such a campaign and the fifa campaign has absolutely nothing to do with the greek football league.

The british have killed dozen times more people than the nazis,the turks the same,the arab  attrocities in europe and india,the spain and portuguese christian warlords in southamerica,mao killed 70mio,stalin 50 mio(with a lot help from the zionists) -all killings based on racism and/or primitive ideology ,but i'm still allowed to use their gestures but not the one of the romans that was perverted by the nazis?



Kasz216 said:
Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Scisca said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:

Greek youth are becoming more right wing as their financial crisis continues, they gather around the banner of the Golden Dawn (Nazi's) which have won some seats in parliament, Greeks are quite anti-foreigner, and anti-minority (They don't offically recognise other races in Greece), it's quite a racist country, more so than any other EU country, although their are some in Greece trying hard to control these influences

What that man did wasn't an accident

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_06/03/2013_486010

Eh.  Greece has a huge racism problem, but more then any other country feels like an exageration

What with Poland, Bolgaria and such.

Now what are you trying to suggest here?

 

I think the penalty is deserved. I think you really have to be retarded to believe a 20-yo European wouldn't know what this gesture means. It's a pity that such a cool Roman sign was turned into something representing such evil.

That Poland is quite racist.

As for a 20 year old europeon... hell, even a 20 year old american would DEFINITLY know what that was. 


I mean, America loves WW2.  The history channel used to be nothing but WW2 because WW2 was the history americans liked most because WW2 is one of the biggest points in US history... espeically from the "Great country" narrative since the Nazis were essentially as far "universally evil" as you are ever going to get.

And you base that on?

Milawa riots and general treatment of the Roma, various racist incidents involving poland in soccer games.

Though looking at it, it does look like they've seen a decrease recently, so good on them.  Good to hear I am part Polish afterall.

What's Milawa riots? I've never heard of it. Even google isn't helping.

Roma? You are clearly mistaking countries. They are a serious issue in Slovakia, Czech Republic and maybe Romania and Hungary, but not in Poland. Also I can't recall a single racist incident in Polish football games and being Polish I watch all games our boys play :) In fact there was one African player who got Polish citisenship after a huge social outcry, cause he was so popular that everyone wanted him to play for us:

I might not have spelled it correctly since it's been off, but in the early 90's the a number of polish people riotied and attacked Roma people.


Ah here it is  I added an I in there for no reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%82awa_pogrom

 

As for Soccer....

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/09/sports/la-sp-baxter-soccer-20120610

http://world.time.com/2012/06/08/euro-2012-racist-abuse-of-dutch-players-in-poland-clouds-soccer-tournament/

 

As for soccer games.

The Polish Wikipedia site for the Roma incident is actually much more informative and gives you more insight into the matter. If you read it, you'll see that it actually wasn't what the English Wikipedia says. This guy hit two people with a car and killed one of them (a Polish soldier), after that he run away without helping them. What was worse, this was 1991 - just after we regained independence and were going from communism to capitalism, which was a very, very difficult period, 35% of people there were unemployed and these Roma were actually wealthy. More importantly though, the government had no authority among the people, there were some conflicts in the city that resulted in a blockade of the whole city and in general in the 90s the goverment didn't have much authority, just like in any trasitional period. But most importantly - a different Roma caused a car accident a year earlier and avoided any kind of punishment (and we're talking about a very small city). So this is quite easy to see, that it wasn't rasism or being anti-Roma, but there was a different reason behind this. People thought that they would use their money and influence once again to avoid punishment and didn't want that to happen. The Wikipedia site also says, that not a single person was hurt and the people weren't at all interested in the poor Roma, just went after the rich ones, which is a crown proof that it wasn't rasizm, since if you're a rasist, you don't care about the material status of the one you hate. It was just the poor seeking justice vs. the rich in times when the goverment and courts have no authority. I really believe that unlike in Slovakia or Czech Republic, there are no racial issues with the Roma.

 

@football - let's face it, stuff like that happens everywhere. Even your article says that somebody threw bananas at Balotelli in a bar in Rome. John Terry also faced a trial because of racism. Kobe Bryant called a ref a faggot last season. Stuff like that happens, it's bad and should be punished, but you can't compare that or a few idiots going to an open practice and making monkey sounds to what's happening in Greece, France, Germany or Russia, where people are persecuting, actually hurting or even killing immigrants, devastating Jewish cementaries, etc. Such stuff is not a problem in Poland and we really are victims of unfair blowing things out of proportion.


A)  He ran because the other people at the scene were going to lynch him.  So yeah... kinda to be expected.  Outside that, the rest of what you wrote is completely untrue.  In the LA race riots... around the same time (1994)... Black people rioted over the Rodney King Verdict.   They mostly only attacked Rich Koreans Americans stores.   It wasn't just because they were rich, there were plenty of other rich people to.

They attacked the Koreans because they were racist, seeing the Koreans as rich outsiders who were getting rich off their people, late comers who "jumped the line."

 

B) Racism happens everywhere sure... 133 racist incidents over the period of 2 years however?

Thatt sounds pretty high to me.  Like I said though.  There more recent numbers outside of football do look pretty decent.  No need to try and whitewash the problems that still do exist.

A) I can't find any single source apart from that English Wikipedia site that would confirm that that's why he fled and I actually kinda doubt it. I think he just fled cause he was 17 and was scared of what happened. Doubt there was already a huge bunch of people who wanted to lynch him, considering the accident happened at 11 pm on the 23rd and the riots started on the 26th. Do you have any proof that what I said is untrue? What I wrote comes from an official report made by the Centre of Public Opinion Research (a very respected body) and was made by two college professors of sociology. I think I'll take their opinion and expertise over yours - and they say the reasons were different. Not everyone who kills a Jew is antisemitic. I agree with the professors that this event wasn't caused by racism, but by the fact that the previous accident wasn't punished and this guy was hiding a few days after the accident (among others). Remember, it was 1991, it was a different world that you don't understand and can't really imagine. We have just fred ourselves from communizm, but people were still used to the fact that rich and influencial people could do absolutely anything and felt that yet again the story would repeat itself. They felt that while the kid was hiding, his family was trying to do something about it, so people acted. I'm not saying it was ok, but I see where it comes from and don't agree it's racism. It's frustration caused by lack of justice and the feeling of helplessness, that the rich are going to abuse them once again. They went exactly after the group that abused the law year earlier and to them looked like tried to do the same thing again. It just happens that one (but not the only one!!) of the critria was the fact that they were Gypsies. Since they couldn't count on the government, they wanted to teach them a lesson themselves - you may be rich and influencial, but won't go unpunished.

This is different from what happened in the US, cause don't forget - a similar accident happened a year earlier and caused no riots, so it's not like people were searching for any kind of reason to attack. These people just felt that this time it was too much and burst out. I don't approve, but I understand why it happened and calling it just racism is just wrong and shallow.

B)

Making a monkey sound = one incident

Beating someone up = one incident

Still, that's not really equal to me.

Not knowing the methodology and the results from other countries we can't say a thing about it - we don't know if it's a lot or not.



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.