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Forums - PC Discussion - Battlefield 4 demo ran on an AMD Radeon HD 7990 ‘Malta’ Video Card

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Michael-5 on 02 April 2013
Slimebeast said:
Michael-5, you misunderstood what makes up the total power of a GPU there for a while, but all along your logic behind the power of the PS4 was right (for example that the extra 4GB RAM ain't there to improve graphics, but it adds potential for bigger levels with more content etc).

Yes, 9x PS3 is the best case scenario (except for a few games like Skyrim that was memory constrained on the PS3, but this time around the PS4 instead has a comparably weaker CPU so it roughly evens out).

Also what these other guys forgot to tell you is that in exclusive games PS3 had the advantage of the Cell, since they could use some graphical tricks through the Cell CPU (like AA), tricks that usually are processed through the GPU.

So bottom line is: in multiplatform games PS4 is 9x powerful than the PS4 but for the top-op-the-line exlusives (Santa Monica, Naught Dogs) it will be less than 9x powerful than PS4.

That's exactly my point! PS4 will be about 9x more powerful then PS3, and slightly less in some cases.

CGI-Quality said:
Michael-5 said:

Actually, from what he's saying, he's agreed with me (and he wasn't the only one, either). For games, the PS4 is about 9x the PS3's power. I never contested that. The complete package of the PS4, however, from RAM, to CPU clocks, Teraflops (which have to be reduced to Gigaflops regarding comparisons to the PS3), and the extensive GPU, put it a little more than 10x the power of the PS3. You're just hung up on this "9x total" for some odd reason. 

Actually he isn't, he in a nutshell restated my arguement and said that PS4 is 9x as powerful as PS3, and that CPU jumped nicely as well. He hasn't responded to weather he thinks PS4 is slightly more or less then 9x as powerful.

CGI-Quality said:

Yes, for gaming, there will be a 9x increase. But, you and Michael are only, both, just talking about that, while I, and others, are talking overall. You stay on the graphics chip talk, but as the PS3 proved, a system isn't, only, as good (or strong) as its GPU.

Besides, even some developers (Carmack and EA) have put the PS4's overall increase at 10x.

So then why did you initially say it was 10-15x? Did you change your point of view, or were you just plain wrong before?

You can't change your statement and then insult me when I showed you how your initial statement was incorrect. 

Why I'm so "hung up" on this 9x more powerful is because you claimed initially that the PS4 was up to 15x more powerful then the PS3, and you also claim that you admit when you're wrong. Well you were wrong there, but you're not admiting it, I'm just making that clear.

Here I'll re-quote you, the post which I called you out on your error and instead of idmitting that you were wrong, you decided started to talk down to me instead.

CGI-Quality said:

Yes, I meant 10-15x. And, at this point, some of us have tried to explain it already, you're just getting to hung up on the numbers. Also, I never stated that the PS4 had 16GB of RAM, I said it jumped x 16 (do the math - 512MB x 16 = 8192MB, which would equate to 8GB). 

Factoring everything in, including T.Flops, PS4 is around 10-15x more powerful than PS3. Besides, a no-name site would be the last place I would trust, when developers, themselves, all praise the current PS4 hardware.

So far CGI, everyone is agreeing with me. Only one person, other then you, specifically stated that the PS4 is over 9x as powerful as the PS3, and that was Captain_Tom. However Slimebeast agrees with you that outside of gaming PS4 is about 10x as powerful.

So don'y make me explain it again, you were wrong before when you stated the bold, and I don't understand why you can't admit it. I admitted that 6-9x was a low estimate (realistically 8-9x is more accurate), but you can't admit you False assumption.

Geez....some people always have to be right, don't be like some of the other Sony fans on this site.



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Michael-5 on 02 April 2013
CGI-Quality said:
Michael-5 said:

 

CGI-Quality said:

Yes, I meant 10-15x. And, at this point, some of us have tried to explain it already, you're just getting to hung up on the numbers. Also, I never stated that the PS4 had 16GB of RAM, I said it jumped x 16 (do the math - 512MB x 16 = 8192MB, which would equate to 8GB). 

Factoring everything in, including T.Flops, PS4 is around 10-15x more powerful than PS3. Besides, a no-name site would be the last place I would trust, when developers, themselves, all praise the current PS4 hardware.

So far CGI, everyone is agreeing with me. Only one person, other then you, specifically stated that the PS4 is over 9x as powerful as the PS3, and that was Captain_Tom. However Slimebeast agrees with you that outside of gaming PS4 is about 10x as powerful.

So don'y make me explain it again, you were wrong before when you stated the bold, and I don't understand why you can't admit it. I admitted that 6-9x was a low estimate (realistically 8-9x is more accurate), but you can't admit you False assumption.

Geez....some people always have to be right, don't be like some of the other Sony fans on this site.

You really need to stop labeling people as "x" fan. It really says more about you than you think. Beyond that, as a staff member, you should be setting better examples.

Now as for the rest of that, I have nothing left for you. What you believe is what you believe. Besides, it's like the saying goes: "those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it". 

Just trying to make the forum a better community. You are a Sony fan, just like me, there is nothing wrong with what I said. I specifically mention Sony because Sony fans already have a bad rep on this site, and I hate it because I like Sony. All I wanted was to hear you admit you're wrong, but every time I call you out, you change the subject.

This is why you're setting a bad example, and why I've been so pushy is because yes, you will repeat the same mistake in the future . I probably will too in trying to discuss future topics with people with a set and defined mindset of the topic.



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zarx on 02 April 2013
CGI-Quality said:

Now that the thread has been broken (in more ways than one), we'll attempt to make it relevant again:

Fresh screens.


Isn't that second one BF3?



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Michael-5 on 02 April 2013
CGI-Quality said:
zarx said:
CGI-Quality said:

Now that the thread has been broken (in more ways than one), we'll attempt to make it relevant again:

Fresh screens.


Isn't that second one BF3?

I thought that too, but apparently it's newer.

LOL, my point exactly, the graphics haven't jumped much this gen, even on a PC 3x as powerful as the PS4/720, and probably 27x more powerful then a WiiU/360/PS3.



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Captain_Tom on 02 April 2013

That I agree with this.

So we can agree that PS4 is about 9x as powerful as the PS3?

Also that explains the CPU situation, I said before how big the jump was, I only said it probably wan't too large considering it's a Laptop CPU in the PS4. So the jump is what 5x (You said the new CPU is comparable to a Quad core-4.0GHz, PS3 had a 3.2Ghz single core). Still my arguement is that the CPU's performance won't make the PS4 more then 9x more powerful, if anything it would bring it down a bit.

Hey, man, if you read my posts, I never once contested anything you said. I'm only trying to explain to CGI-Quality that if the GPU performance is 9x PS3's power. all all the other jumps are 9x or less, then the PS4 is not going to be more 9x as powerful (I was arguing 6-9x because of other slower, but I'm not too computer oriented, so I won't argue 9x). You seem to agree on me with this.

So what's with the negative attitude?

Do you think it's about 9x as powerful, or slightly less? or slightly more?

-Let me just do the bloody math:

-16x the RAM

-The RAM is at least 3x faster

-90nm CPU -> 28nm = 3.2x the room for more transistors (What makes up CPU's)

--90nm GPU -> 28nm = 3.2x the room for more transistors (What makes up GPU's Core)

-8 cores instead of 6 (Useable for gaming).

-The PS4 CPU has 8 full cores instead of 1 core + 5 SPE's.

-The CPU speed will probably be at around 1.8 GHz instead of 3.2 GHz

 

So how you put a total number on that is beyond me, but look at it this way:

-The PS4's GPU can calculate 2176 GFLOPS to the PS3's 176.  That is 12.4x the power alone!

With everything else, it is very fair to say the PS4 is AT LEAST 10-15 times stronger than the PS3.

 

Now just accept it!  Otherwise I can break down how the Wii U is no stronger than the PS3...



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Captain_Tom on 02 April 2013
Michael-5 said:
CGI-Quality said:
zarx said:
CGI-Quality said:

Now that the thread has been broken (in more ways than one), we'll attempt to make it relevant again:

Fresh screens.


Isn't that second one BF3?

I thought that too, but apparently it's newer.

LOL, my point exactly, the graphics haven't jumped much this gen, even on a PC 3x as powerful as the PS4/720, and probably 27x more powerful then a WiiU/360/PS3.

No that is BF3 and you have no idea how much better it looks than the PS3's version until you see or play it.  ALL of my friends have agreed the PC version of BF3 maxed out easily looks a full gen ahead of the PS3 version (And that game is from 2011!).

 

It's not just graphics either: 64 players, more vehicles, more accurate physics, hit response and gun accuracy are better, and the maps are WAY bigger.



Michael-5 on 02 April 2013
Captain_Tom said:

That I agree with this.

So we can agree that PS4 is about 9x as powerful as the PS3?

Also that explains the CPU situation, I said before how big the jump was, I only said it probably wan't too large considering it's a Laptop CPU in the PS4. So the jump is what 5x (You said the new CPU is comparable to a Quad core-4.0GHz, PS3 had a 3.2Ghz single core). Still my arguement is that the CPU's performance won't make the PS4 more then 9x more powerful, if anything it would bring it down a bit.

Hey, man, if you read my posts, I never once contested anything you said. I'm only trying to explain to CGI-Quality that if the GPU performance is 9x PS3's power. all all the other jumps are 9x or less, then the PS4 is not going to be more 9x as powerful (I was arguing 6-9x because of other slower, but I'm not too computer oriented, so I won't argue 9x). You seem to agree on me with this.

So what's with the negative attitude?

Do you think it's about 9x as powerful, or slightly less? or slightly more?

-Let me just do the bloody math:

-16x the RAM

-The RAM is at least 3x faster

-90nm CPU -> 28nm = 3.2x the room for more transistors (What makes up CPU's)

--90nm GPU -> 28nm = 3.2x the room for more transistors (What makes up GPU's Core)

-8 cores instead of 6 (Useable for gaming).

-The PS4 CPU has 8 full cores instead of 1 core + 5 SPE's.

-The CPU speed will probably be at around 1.8 GHz instead of 3.2 GHz

 

So how you put a total number on that is beyond me, but look at it this way:

-The PS4's GPU can calculate 2176 GFLOPS to the PS3's 176.  That is 12.4x the power alone!

With everything else, it is very fair to say the PS4 is AT LEAST 10-15 times stronger than the PS3.

 

Now just accept it!  Otherwise I can break down how the Wii U is no stronger than the PS3...

Problem is you're math is bad.

PS3 is 230.4 GFLOPS, so assuming your PS4 GFLOPS value is correct, then the jump is 9.5x, however Sony hasn't released the GPU performance figures of the PS4, we only know that it's based on a graphics card which produces 1860 GFLOPS. So if we use those two figures, then the PS4 is only a 7x jump. However we know that the PS4 GPU will be slightly improved, so 9x is a good figure.

As for the CPU, I've shown this earlier, but the increase is 5x.

RAM Speed is about 3x greater, and RAM is 16x as much. However, except for RAM nothing is above 9x, and the most important factor is GPU power, and that's roughly 9x.

So like everyone else in this thread, except you, believe (CGI even changed his opinion, but won't admit that we has wrong one of the two times) the PS4 is about 8-10x as powerful as the PS3 (Some people think 8-9x, some thing 9-10x)



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Michael-5 on 02 April 2013
Captain_Tom said:
Michael-5 said:
CGI-Quality said:
zarx said:
CGI-Quality said:

Now that the thread has been broken (in more ways than one), we'll attempt to make it relevant again:

Fresh screens.


Isn't that second one BF3?

I thought that too, but apparently it's newer.

LOL, my point exactly, the graphics haven't jumped much this gen, even on a PC 3x as powerful as the PS4/720, and probably 27x more powerful then a WiiU/360/PS3.

No that is BF3 and you have no idea how much better it looks than the PS3's version until you see or play it.  ALL of my friends have agreed the PC version of BF3 maxed out easily looks a full gen ahead of the PS3 version (And that game is from 2011!).

 

It's not just graphics either: 64 players, more vehicles, more accurate physics, hit response and gun accuracy are better, and the maps are WAY bigger.

If you look at my previous posts, I specifically mention that the PS4 will be able to play Battlefield 3 on max settings, and I laughed. Yes BF3 looks good on MAX, but the jump isn't as huge as N64 to PS2 and X-Box to PS3. Heck 9x or 15x, this pales in comparision to the 230x jump from X-Box to PS3 (X-Box 1 pushed around 10 GFLOPS).



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Captain_Tom on 03 April 2013
Michael-5 said:
Captain_Tom said:

That I agree with this.

So we can agree that PS4 is about 9x as powerful as the PS3?

Also that explains the CPU situation, I said before how big the jump was, I only said it probably wan't too large considering it's a Laptop CPU in the PS4. So the jump is what 5x (You said the new CPU is comparable to a Quad core-4.0GHz, PS3 had a 3.2Ghz single core). Still my arguement is that the CPU's performance won't make the PS4 more then 9x more powerful, if anything it would bring it down a bit.

Hey, man, if you read my posts, I never once contested anything you said. I'm only trying to explain to CGI-Quality that if the GPU performance is 9x PS3's power. all all the other jumps are 9x or less, then the PS4 is not going to be more 9x as powerful (I was arguing 6-9x because of other slower, but I'm not too computer oriented, so I won't argue 9x). You seem to agree on me with this.

So what's with the negative attitude?

Do you think it's about 9x as powerful, or slightly less? or slightly more?

-Let me just do the bloody math:

-16x the RAM

-The RAM is at least 3x faster

-90nm CPU -> 28nm = 3.2x the room for more transistors (What makes up CPU's)

--90nm GPU -> 28nm = 3.2x the room for more transistors (What makes up GPU's Core)

-8 cores instead of 6 (Useable for gaming).

-The PS4 CPU has 8 full cores instead of 1 core + 5 SPE's.

-The CPU speed will probably be at around 1.8 GHz instead of 3.2 GHz

 

So how you put a total number on that is beyond me, but look at it this way:

-The PS4's GPU can calculate 2176 GFLOPS to the PS3's 176.  That is 12.4x the power alone!

With everything else, it is very fair to say the PS4 is AT LEAST 10-15 times stronger than the PS3.

 

Now just accept it!  Otherwise I can break down how the Wii U is no stronger than the PS3...

Problem is you're math is bad.

PS3 is 230.4 GFLOPS, so assuming your PS4 GFLOPS value is correct, then the jump is 9.5x, however Sony hasn't released the GPU performance figures of the PS4, we only know that it's based on a graphics card which produces 1860 GFLOPS. So if we use those two figures, then the PS4 is only a 7x jump. However we know that the PS4 GPU will be slightly improved, so 9x is a good figure.

As for the CPU, I've shown this earlier, but the increase is 5x.

RAM Speed is about 3x greater, and RAM is 16x as much. However, except for RAM nothing is above 9x, and the most important factor is GPU power, and that's roughly 9x.

So like everyone else in this thread, except you, believe (CGI even changed his opinion, but won't admit that we has wrong one of the two times) the PS4 is about 8-10x as powerful as the PS3 (Some people think 8-9x, some thing 9-10x)


This is why I don't even try.  The ignorant are just that: ignorant.

I just don't get where you are seeing 9.  Even if I follow your incorrect math you get:

9x gpu

5x cpu

16x ram 

3x faster ram.

Why do you just pick the 9 out of those numbers?  

-16x the ram means 16x the texture size/amount of data the CPU can read.  

-5x the CPU means 5x the physics calculations/AI/amount of MP data that can be handled 

-3x faster ram means 3x the graphics data that can be fead to the GPU.

 

If anything the PS4 is 9x3=27x more powerful graphically.  Then the CPU will hopefully not hold it back (But just because it is "5x" doesn't mean it will).

At the end of the day 10-15x is a CONSERVATIVE estimate so we don't get our hopes up!

 

P.S.  CGI didn't "Admit he is wrong," he simply gives up trying to explain things to someone who just isn't educated enough on the matter to understand.  I only kept responding in the hopes that onlookers will at least get to see the light so they can choose to ignore your swill.  Having said that I am done with you.  Believe what you want, but you are clearly not an Engineer, Mathmatician, or Computer Science guy (Although you only need a high school education and the ability to LOOK SHIT UP ON YOUR OWN to understand what we were saying).



Michael-5 on 03 April 2013
Captain_Tom said:
Michael-5 said:
Captain_Tom said:

That I agree with this.

So we can agree that PS4 is about 9x as powerful as the PS3?

Also that explains the CPU situation, I said before how big the jump was, I only said it probably wan't too large considering it's a Laptop CPU in the PS4. So the jump is what 5x (You said the new CPU is comparable to a Quad core-4.0GHz, PS3 had a 3.2Ghz single core). Still my arguement is that the CPU's performance won't make the PS4 more then 9x more powerful, if anything it would bring it down a bit.

Hey, man, if you read my posts, I never once contested anything you said. I'm only trying to explain to CGI-Quality that if the GPU performance is 9x PS3's power. all all the other jumps are 9x or less, then the PS4 is not going to be more 9x as powerful (I was arguing 6-9x because of other slower, but I'm not too computer oriented, so I won't argue 9x). You seem to agree on me with this.

So what's with the negative attitude?

Do you think it's about 9x as powerful, or slightly less? or slightly more?

-Let me just do the bloody math:

-16x the RAM

-The RAM is at least 3x faster

-90nm CPU -> 28nm = 3.2x the room for more transistors (What makes up CPU's)

--90nm GPU -> 28nm = 3.2x the room for more transistors (What makes up GPU's Core)

-8 cores instead of 6 (Useable for gaming).

-The PS4 CPU has 8 full cores instead of 1 core + 5 SPE's.

-The CPU speed will probably be at around 1.8 GHz instead of 3.2 GHz

 

So how you put a total number on that is beyond me, but look at it this way:

-The PS4's GPU can calculate 2176 GFLOPS to the PS3's 176.  That is 12.4x the power alone!

With everything else, it is very fair to say the PS4 is AT LEAST 10-15 times stronger than the PS3.

 

Now just accept it!  Otherwise I can break down how the Wii U is no stronger than the PS3...

Problem is you're math is bad.

PS3 is 230.4 GFLOPS, so assuming your PS4 GFLOPS value is correct, then the jump is 9.5x, however Sony hasn't released the GPU performance figures of the PS4, we only know that it's based on a graphics card which produces 1860 GFLOPS. So if we use those two figures, then the PS4 is only a 7x jump. However we know that the PS4 GPU will be slightly improved, so 9x is a good figure.

As for the CPU, I've shown this earlier, but the increase is 5x.

RAM Speed is about 3x greater, and RAM is 16x as much. However, except for RAM nothing is above 9x, and the most important factor is GPU power, and that's roughly 9x.

So like everyone else in this thread, except you, believe (CGI even changed his opinion, but won't admit that we has wrong one of the two times) the PS4 is about 8-10x as powerful as the PS3 (Some people think 8-9x, some thing 9-10x)


This is why I don't even try.  The ignorant are just that: ignorant.

I just don't get where you are seeing 9.  Even if I follow your incorrect math you get:

9x gpu

5x cpu

16x ram 

3x faster ram.

Why do you just pick the 9 out of those numbers?  

-16x the ram means 16x the texture size/amount of data the CPU can read.  

-5x the CPU means 5x the physics calculations/AI/amount of MP data that can be handled 

-3x faster ram means 3x the graphics data that can be fead to the GPU.

 

If anything the PS4 is 9x3=27x more powerful graphically.  Then the CPU will hopefully not hold it back (But just because it is "5x" doesn't mean it will).

At the end of the day 10-15x is a CONSERVATIVE estimate so we don't get our hopes up!

 

P.S.  CGI didn't "Admit he is wrong," he simply gives up trying to explain things to someone who just isn't educated enough on the matter to understand.  I only kept responding in the hopes that onlookers will at least get to see the light so they can choose to ignore your swill.  Having said that I am done with you.  Believe what you want, but you are clearly not an Engineer, Mathmatician, or Computer Science guy (Although you only need a high school education and the ability to LOOK SHIT UP ON YOUR OWN to understand what we were saying).

I'm not ignorant because you just made an arguement and I just made a proper counter. I didn't call you ignorant or insult you when you gave incorrect figures leading to an over-estimate of PS4's power, but you're insulting me?

9x is what I argue is the max jump, but some people say a bit less, some say a bit more. 9x is my conservative value, it's not more then 9x (or 10x) because with the sole exception of RAM nothing is more then 9x more powerful. RAM alone doesn't double a computers power (take it from a bit under 9x to 15x). What Random Access Memory will do is improve load times, allow games to run at higher resolutions, allow higher FPS, and put more objects on the screen. However RAM Speed and VRAM only go up 3x, so most of the boost gained from a bunch of RAM is lost from not so substantial increases in RAM speed. GPU performance is going to make up the bulk of the power increase, and maybe CPU performance too, but the CPU is only a 5x jump, so it's not going to make the PS4 any more then 9x as powerful.

Where the heck did you get that 27x more powerful figure (That would make PS4 as Powerful as an AMD Radeon 7990 which produces over 6,000 GFlops of data)?

Where the heck did you get that 10-15x figure? Except for RAM, not 1 value is over 9x as powerful, heck some things only increase by 1.6x (GPU Speed) or 3x, and the most important factors (GPU Performance) is probably a bit under 9x as powerful as PS3.

LOL at telling me to look stuff up when I just corrected you on PS3 and PS4's GPU performance. Look I understand if you think PS4 was 10-15x as powerful as the PS3. You originally had incorrect values for PS3 and PS4 GPU performance, and got a value that PS4 was 12.4x as powerful as the PS3. That's fine, everyone makes mistakes, but when you try to argue you're mistakes, and insult people who are trying to show you some incorrect assumptions you made, that's a bit annoying. Everyone else has already agreed with me that about 9x is the performance jump, even CGI (He won't admit he was wrong before, I dunno why, he clearly stated 10-15x before and then suddenly started to agree with me).

Now look, I'm not being ignorant, I'm just not understanding your case. All I want is to have a rational conversation between adults without someone talking down to someone else or making names. If you don't agree with me, fine, tell me why, but don't immediatly insult me.



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