Why did people feel compelled to defend haphazard hardware. Seriously this is just one egregious design choice of many that Nintendo made when it came to their console. Don't defend a bad design philosophy, and we all know it is a bad design philosophy. Large internal memory storage is standard now, and it is standard for a host of reasons. It is bad form for Nintendo to require players to build workarounds to get a feature that is coming standard with most last generation consoles.

Some of you have seemingly forgot what console gaming is all about. Console gaming is about good to go out of the box, and it will last for many years. We shouldn't be building rigs to support our machines. That isn't what a console gamer expects, and in fact they demand that it be the opposite. Console gaming should be about ease of use. Anything that functionally disrupts that experience is just plain bad.

You know what is actually laughable. Some of you haven't obviously grasped this yet. So allow me to fill you in. The lack of sufficient internal storage. Actually does significant harm to game developers, and as a consequence of that choice. You the gamer are getting less games as a result. It limits their opportunity to sell their games, it limits what they can do with the hardware, and it reduces the total number of software sales they can get.

This choice by Nintendo is partly to blame for that game drought. There may have been half a dozen games in that period that could have been ported to the console, but weren't for this reason. That developers couldn't find a way to make a profit, because it would have been digital sales that would have put them over the top. This is actually hurting you. Don't defend the dog that is tearing chunks of flesh out of you.

Both Sony and Microsoft seem to have learned their lessons about substandard storage. More isn't just better. More is actually necessary. They both learned this years ago. The question is why didn't Nintendo get the memo. Oh and yes both Sony and Microsoft got reamed, and some of their fans offered up the same weak excuses. It didn't work then, and it wont work now. Excuses are just a way to ignore the problem. They don't undo the harm that is being done.

Dodece said: Why did people feel compelled to defend haphazard hardware. Seriously this is just one egregious design choice of many that Nintendo made when it came to their console. Don't defend a bad design philosophy, and we all know it is a bad design philosophy. Large internal memory storage is standard now, and it is standard for a host of reasons. It is bad form for Nintendo to require players to build workarounds to get a feature that is coming standard with most last generation consoles. Some of you have seemingly forgot what console gaming is all about. Console gaming is about good to go out of the box, and it will last for many years. We shouldn't be building rigs to support our machines. That isn't what a console gamer expects, and in fact they demand that it be the opposite. Console gaming should be about ease of use. Anything that functionally disrupts that experience is just plain bad. You know what is actually laughable. Some of you haven't obviously grasped this yet. So allow me to fill you in. The lack of sufficient internal storage. Actually does significant harm to game developers, and as a consequence of that choice. You the gamer are getting less games as a result. It limits their opportunity to sell their games, it limits what they can do with the hardware, and it reduces the total number of software sales they can get. This choice by Nintendo is partly to blame for that game drought. There may have been half a dozen games in that period that could have been ported to the console, but weren't for this reason. That developers couldn't find a way to make a profit, because it would have been digital sales that would have put them over the top. This is actually hurting you. Don't defend the dog that is tearing chunks of flesh out of you. Both Sony and Microsoft seem to have learned their lessons about substandard storage. More isn't just better. More is actually necessary. They both learned this years ago. The question is why didn't Nintendo get the memo. Oh and yes both Sony and Microsoft got reamed, and some of their fans offered up the same weak excuses. It didn't work then, and it wont work now. Excuses are just a way to ignore the problem. They don't undo the harm that is being done.

When did Sony and Microsoft learn their lessons? Sony still has the Vita which has the same issue as the Wii U and Microsoft still sells the 360 4gb model.

 

Its not like Nintendo can't release updated consoles with bigger hard drives later like the PS3 and 360 did.

 

The only thing I think Nintendo should do is release an external HDD with the Nintendo stamp on it so people don't have to research which external they should use.

Dodece said: Why did people feel compelled to defend haphazard hardware. Seriously this is just one egregious design choice of many that Nintendo made when it came to their console. Don't defend a bad design philosophy, and we all know it is a bad design philosophy. Large internal memory storage is standard now, and it is standard for a host of reasons. It is bad form for Nintendo to require players to build workarounds to get a feature that is coming standard with most last generation consoles. Some of you have seemingly forgot what console gaming is all about. Console gaming is about good to go out of the box, and it will last for many years. We shouldn't be building rigs to support our machines. That isn't what a console gamer expects, and in fact they demand that it be the opposite. Console gaming should be about ease of use. Anything that functionally disrupts that experience is just plain bad. You know what is actually laughable. Some of you haven't obviously grasped this yet. So allow me to fill you in. The lack of sufficient internal storage. Actually does significant harm to game developers, and as a consequence of that choice. You the gamer are getting less games as a result. It limits their opportunity to sell their games, it limits what they can do with the hardware, and it reduces the total number of software sales they can get. This choice by Nintendo is partly to blame for that game drought. There may have been half a dozen games in that period that could have been ported to the console, but weren't for this reason. That developers couldn't find a way to make a profit, because it would have been digital sales that would have put them over the top. This is actually hurting you. Don't defend the dog that is tearing chunks of flesh out of you. Both Sony and Microsoft seem to have learned their lessons about substandard storage. More isn't just better. More is actually necessary. They both learned this years ago. The question is why didn't Nintendo get the memo. Oh and yes both Sony and Microsoft got reamed, and some of their fans offered up the same weak excuses. It didn't work then, and it wont work now. Excuses are just a way to ignore the problem. They don't undo the harm that is being done.

You only post text walls against Nintendo? Seriously, this issue is not such a thing. 8gb model is for gamesaves, small demos and small games, 32gb model is for all that plus big demos and digital titles (Trine2, TheCave...etc.). If you want full retail games digital (rare thing), you are forced to buy an external HDD which is like 50$ for 500gb. Face it, nearly nobody dwloads full retail games, EVER. Its stupid for Nintendo to make their system more expensive just for a small minority. If youre part of that minority, well, deal with it, or move on.

@Booya

Microsoft does pay a price for its low end model, but they are pretty much stuck with the consequences at this point in time. Large hard drives not being standard has cost them dearly. There are a lot of games that were slated to come to the platform. That never arrived, because too few consoles had the hard drive space that was required for them to run on the system. Microsoft has tried to redress that through later iterations with sufficient hard drive space, but it cannot get all of the substandard products out of the market that they put there, and exacerbated with their price warring with Sony.

Nintendo shouldn't be following this example, because it is a stigma, and puts them in the no win situation. Where they would have to split their player base. They can't have games on their platform now that require hard drives to operate. It is actually quite the miracle that we are finally getting a few on the 360 now. Which is ironically good for Sony too, because the twins combined are more attractive then either one alone could be. Especially in Western markets.

As for Sony with its Vita. Look I know there is this desperate desire by some to treat portable gaming devices as if they are consoles, but that is a load of shit. They want to do that to distance those devices away from the smart phone, and tablet markets. Which are effectively dwarfing them in the marketplace. Some fans just don't want to accept the very real possibility that dedicated portable gaming is going the way of the dodo, but that is very much the likely outcome. Sony learning with its consoles. Isn't a lesson that necessarily translates for them to their portable.

Sony plain has a fetish for proprietary media. They want to be the owner of something they can charge licensing fees for, because that is a gold mine. They kind of have a point. Okay a point that was relevant ten to fifteen years ago. Back then a company could make severe profits from licensing hardware formats. Since then the world has gone digital, but they are still trying to get people to buy their proprietary formats. After all for whatever reason they still keep dumping money into development.

Does that clear things up for you?

@DidAppleDie

My posting record speaks for itself. When I chime in on something I almost always expound. Feel free to ask around. It is something that I am somewhat known for. Some people love it, and some people hate it. Doesn't bother me too terribly much where you fall on the subject. The only axe I have to grind is with zealots, propaganda, and stupidity. Ask around I have made no secret of the fact that I am a free thinker. I don't accept, or buy into rote logic. I don't like logic errors, and I despise people that mindlessly worship pieces of silicon and plastic.

In other words I am telling you the truth, and you think it is mean spirited, because you don't want to hear the truth. No you want to attack the messenger, or fall back on tired cliche done to death arguments. Well I am the guy who likes to snatch the security blanket out of your hands. In other words get used to it. You aren't going to like a lot of what I have to say, and if you just outright dismiss what I have to say. The loss isn't mine but yours.

As for your comment about digital sales. I suppose that Steam service thing I have been hearing about is just some kind of silly rumor is that it. Yeah and Amazon selling digital downloads of full games is some kind of urban myth. Listen up companies don't sell things that don't sell. Microsoft alone is offering up hundreds of retail games for download over Live Marketplace. Do you really think they would do that if they weren't selling, and weren't selling well. What world are you living in that the digital revolution is just passing you by like this.

Dodece said: @Booya Microsoft does pay a price for its low end model, but they are pretty much stuck with the consequences at this point in time. Large hard drives not being standard has cost them dearly. There are a lot of games that were slated to come to the platform. That never arrived, because too few consoles had the hard drive space that was required for them to run on the system. Microsoft has tried to redress that through later iterations with sufficient hard drive space, but it cannot get all of the substandard products out of the market that they put there, and exacerbated with their price warring with Sony. Nintendo shouldn't be following this example, because it is a stigma, and puts them in the no win situation. Where they would have to split their player base. They can't have games on their platform now that require hard drives to operate. It is actually quite the miracle that we are finally getting a few on the 360 now. Which is ironically good for Sony too, because the twins combined are more attractive then either one alone could be. Especially in Western markets. As for Sony with its Vita. Look I know there is this desperate desire by some to treat portable gaming devices as if they are consoles, but that is a load of shit. They want to do that to distance those devices away from the smart phone, and tablet markets. Which are effectively dwarfing them in the marketplace. Some fans just don't want to accept the very real possibility that dedicated portable gaming is going the way of the dodo, but that is very much the likely outcome. Sony learning with its consoles. Isn't a lesson that necessarily translates for them to their portable. Sony plain has a fetish for proprietary media. They want to be the owner of something they can charge licensing fees for, because that is a gold mine. They kind of have a point. Okay a point that was relevant ten to fifteen years ago. Back then a company could make severe profits from licensing hardware formats. Since then the world has gone digital, but they are still trying to get people to buy their proprietary formats. After all for whatever reason they still keep dumping money into development. Does that clear things up for you? @DidAppleDie My posting record speaks for itself. When I chime in on something I almost always expound. Feel free to ask around. It is something that I am somewhat known for. Some peole love it, and some people hate it. Doesn't bother me too terribly much where you fall on the subject. The only axe I have to grind is with zealots, propaganda, and stupidity. Ask around I have made no secret of the fact that I am a free thinker. I don't accept, or buy into rote logic. I don't like logic errors, and I despise people that mindlessly worship pieces of silicon and plastic. In other words I am telling you the truth, and you think it is mean spirited, because you don't want to hear the truth. No you want to attack the messenger, or fall back on tired cliche done to death arguments. Well I am the guy who likes to snatch the security blanket out of your hands. In other words get used to it. You aren't going to like a lot of what I have to say, and if you just outright dismiss what I have to say. The loss isn't mine but yours. As for your comment about digital sales. I suppose that Steam service thing I have been hearing about is just some kind of silly rumor is that it. Yeah and Amazon selling digital downloads of full games is some kind of urban myth. Listen up companies don't sell things that don't sell. Microsoft alone is offering up hundreds of retail games for download over Live Marketplace. Do you really think they would do that if they weren't selling, and weren't selling well. What world are you living in that the digital revolution is just passing you by like this.

Microsoft had a bigger issue with the stigma of console durability more than having a HDD issue, and I think that is what allowed Sony to ultimately catch up hardware wise.

PS3/360/Wii was the first generation to have internal memory as a norm, and before that nobody ever complained about using memory cards, even though installing software has been a PC norm for years.

Even now devices like digital cameras and phones can get memory upgrades which seems to be ok and nobody complains about that.

You also have to consider price as well, which will really dictate if Sony has learned their lesson when they announce price, online pay scale and how used games are going to work.

Nintendo is just thinking about cost, from a business stand point, look at what Sony had to remove from the PS3 and had to leave out of the PS4 to make it more cost effective. The only problem I have with the Nintendo approach is that they don't have HDD's with their name slapped on it saying "for WiiU".

Time will dictate if it is as crushing of a move as you say, but personally even if Nintendo had made a super beefy console with 1 TB of HDD space 3rd parties would still have some excuse for why they can't put their games on the console.

@booya

There is no questioning that third party developers have a lot of reasons to not develop for the Wii U, but excuses in this case are like ammunition. Every bullet that Nintendo doesn't give to developers is another hit they don't have to needlessly take. For instance this choice on their part basically removes the possibility of them getting certain types of games for their platform. Massive Online games demand hard drive installs.

Early next month Defiance is coming out for the PS3/360/PC. The game requires a mandatory install to play on the consoles. That install being 10GB, and since Nintendo doesn't have enough consoles on the market with the space to install the game. They probably stand no chance of even getting a delayed port of the title. If the situation weren't such Nintendo, and the players on the platform might have had a good chance at getting the game. They might even be getting many games in that genre. Sellers in that marketplace actually aren't all that picky. They just want as many users as possible.

Branded peripherals really don't address the problem, because unfortunately as strange as it may sound. The fact that the console can function without one. Means that Nintendo could never assure developers that the tech had seen a serious upswing in adoption on the platform. All developers will understand is that the consoles don't come with them standard.

It may have been a decision made in response to a dilemma, but it was a dilemma of their own making. Nintendo put too many of their eggs in one basket. It obviously made it hard to balance their platform, and their financial philosophy didn't make the issue any easier. Twenty Five to Thirty dollars more would have opened up a lot of doors. Even if those doors weren't typical console game providers. Believe it or not there are a lot of PC centric developers who might have gambled on the vacancies left by big name developers that weren't throwing their own development might behind the platform.

Ail said: DieAppleDie said: bananaking21 said: DieAppleDie said: A second hand 500gb hdd costs next to zero, shouldnt be a big deal.....the key word is should they just released the system and already games are requiring you to change the hard drive. it was obvious from day one that this will be in issue yet nintendo decided to go with the extremely low memory choices. so much for nintendo going all out on the digital and online space like they claim they are doing The thing is most people buy games on discs, people that need huge memory to dwnld full games are the minority, of the minority...you cant really blame Nintendo for not adding a big hard drive, minorities are not priorities.... As Per NPD Physical software sales in February : 369  million $ Digital software sales : 319 million $ doesn't look like much a minory now does it ? ( And even for people buying physical, there are DLC out there that are huge, Mass Effect 3 last DLC is 3.3Gb..)

Does that include PC? And, I'm pretty sure the bulk of that digtial revenue is coming from DLC and add ons, not full games (unless PC and Steam is involved which if so, shouldn't be used to back up an argument about home console sales).

Dodece said: Early next month Defiance is coming out for the PS3/360/PC. The game requires a mandatory install to play on the consoles. That install being 10GB, and since Nintendo doesn't have enough consoles on the market with the space to install the game.

I think I speak for the majority of CONSOLE gamers when I say, good, we don't WANT 10GB manditory installs. I'd rather not get a title if that's the case. The industry is getting ridiculous with this crap and if Nintendo's the last company standing up against it, then that's the company I'll end up supporting, even to it's dying breath.

Guess when the sales come in we wont be hearing quotes like " ohh I bet that 30% of people downloaded this!".

Software sales should be right on target then.

DieAppleDie said: Dodece said: Why did people feel compelled to defend haphazard hardware. Seriously this is just one egregious design choice of many that Nintendo made when it came to their console. Don't defend a bad design philosophy, and we all know it is a bad design philosophy. Large internal memory storage is standard now, and it is standard for a host of reasons. It is bad form for Nintendo to require players to build workarounds to get a feature that is coming standard with most last generation consoles. Some of you have seemingly forgot what console gaming is all about. Console gaming is about good to go out of the box, and it will last for many years. We shouldn't be building rigs to support our machines. That isn't what a console gamer expects, and in fact they demand that it be the opposite. Console gaming should be about ease of use. Anything that functionally disrupts that experience is just plain bad. You know what is actually laughable. Some of you haven't obviously grasped this yet. So allow me to fill you in. The lack of sufficient internal storage. Actually does significant harm to game developers, and as a consequence of that choice. You the gamer are getting less games as a result. It limits their opportunity to sell their games, it limits what they can do with the hardware, and it reduces the total number of software sales they can get. This choice by Nintendo is partly to blame for that game drought. There may have been half a dozen games in that period that could have been ported to the console, but weren't for this reason. That developers couldn't find a way to make a profit, because it would have been digital sales that would have put them over the top. This is actually hurting you. Don't defend the dog that is tearing chunks of flesh out of you. Both Sony and Microsoft seem to have learned their lessons about substandard storage. More isn't just better. More is actually necessary. They both learned this years ago. The question is why didn't Nintendo get the memo. Oh and yes both Sony and Microsoft got reamed, and some of their fans offered up the same weak excuses. It didn't work then, and it wont work now. Excuses are just a way to ignore the problem. They don't undo the harm that is being done. You only post text walls against Nintendo? Seriously, this issue is not such a thing. 8gb model is for gamesaves, small demos and small games, 32gb model is for all that plus big demos and digital titles (Trine2, TheCave...etc.). If you want full retail games digital (rare thing), you are forced to buy an external HDD which is like 50$ for 500gb. Face it, nearly nobody dwloads full retail games, EVER. Its stupid for Nintendo to make their system more expensive just for a small minority. If youre part of that minority, well, deal with it, or move on.

Thats a strange comment....I've downloaded over 20 full retail games. 3 of them were only released on disc in japan and when localized they only released them online so I was forced to buy them online. I dunno where you've been all these years but downloading full retail games is pretty standard these days. I download ALL my PC games on steam I download MOST my ps3 games off the PSN and download SOME for my vita. The main release I dont download more for my vita is because of the limited memory space.