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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Nintendo and 3rd parties *Formerly; Nintendo is f*cking up big times with 3rd parties*

PSwii60 on 27 February 2013

Mario is the Messiah.



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oniyide on 28 February 2013
Cobretti2 said:
RolStoppable said:
gumby_trucker said:

This exchange reminded me of something I read a few years ago from a developer complaining about the Wii. I'll see if maybe I can dig it up, but the gist of it was about having a hard time making the most out of Wii's innovative controls due to some hardware limitations. At the time I remember thinking it sounded like the developer was saying you needed more processing power and/or memory to create meaningful implementations of gesture and motion based controls. This is also the reason the complaint stood out in my mind, as for once it seemed like a legitimate issue, and not one related to SD graphics or lack of advanced shaders.

Notice the bolded is referring  to controls and not graphics, so your rebuttle about Shin'en's technical achievements is not really relevant. At the end of the day there really was a pathetically small number of games that made successful attempts at gesture-based motion contrlols so this may be an indication that it was more difficult to achieve than it could/should have been.

My rebuttal is still relevant, because if developers were truly serious about the Wii, but held back by limitations regarding the controls, then their efforts and ambition would have still shone through in the graphics department, as well as in the overall design of the game. The third party games we've seen on the Wii were usually plagued by two or all of the following traits:

1) Lacking controls.
2) Subpar graphics.
3) Lack of content, poor game design.

The supposed issues with motion controls also don't work as a universal excuse, because it was perfectly possible to create and sell good games on the Wii that barely used motion controls or didn't use them at all. I can once again point to Resident Evil 4 that was released in mid-2007 and shattered its sales expectations. Pointer functionality was easy to implement and a selling point for shooting games. There were of course also Nintendo games that proved that you didn't necessarily need motion controls to be successful on the Wii.

At the end of the day there really was a pathetically small number of games that made successful attempts at gesture-based motion contrlols so this may be an indication that it was more difficult to achieve than it could/should have been.

Addressing this part specifically, at the end of the day there was a pathetically small number of third party games that seriously tried, whether that concerns controls, graphics or content. I could believe there was a problem with the Wii and Nintendo, if it was clear that games were held back by the machine. But all the evidence we have, the actual games, doesn't support that Nintendo is the main culprit (which is DanneSandin's claim). There's a chance that Nintendo held some tools back, but that wouldn't really matter in the big picture, because third parties clearly didn't use the tools they actually had to their full potential (it wasn't even close).


Even with limitations, Nintendo addressed this by releasing motion plus, which shows they listened to someone at least lol, but it wasn't really used.

Some game that worked well with the limitations from 3rd parties was RE4 and Godfather. Both these games worked well as effort was put in. 

This is just a couple examples where developers who tried made good controls. So others who complained clearly did not play some of these games.

Motion+ should have been there day 1, the fact that it wasnt tells me that kinda half assed the whole motion thing. And when they did decide to finally release the add on, they thenselves barely supported the damn thing. Hell the other two support their add on crap more than Ninty did theirs and those two were far less popular. 

Probably with RE4 and Godfather, Bully etc, is they were ports of games  that had ALREADY been released on consoles that were still pretty popular at the time. Lets be real people are not going to buy a game again in droves just cause it has "better" controls. They just didnt make enough ORIGINAL content at the beginning and the ones they did made kinda sucked a bit. THe irony is the games that control like absolute crap sold a boat load (Just Dance) if your a developer and you see that, why would you even TRY? You wouldnt you would just ride on the dance coattails its cheaper and nets you more profit.



Cobretti2 on 28 February 2013
oniyide said:
Cobretti2 said:
RolStoppable said:
gumby_trucker said:

This exchange reminded me of something I read a few years ago from a developer complaining about the Wii. I'll see if maybe I can dig it up, but the gist of it was about having a hard time making the most out of Wii's innovative controls due to some hardware limitations. At the time I remember thinking it sounded like the developer was saying you needed more processing power and/or memory to create meaningful implementations of gesture and motion based controls. This is also the reason the complaint stood out in my mind, as for once it seemed like a legitimate issue, and not one related to SD graphics or lack of advanced shaders.

Notice the bolded is referring  to controls and not graphics, so your rebuttle about Shin'en's technical achievements is not really relevant. At the end of the day there really was a pathetically small number of games that made successful attempts at gesture-based motion contrlols so this may be an indication that it was more difficult to achieve than it could/should have been.

My rebuttal is still relevant, because if developers were truly serious about the Wii, but held back by limitations regarding the controls, then their efforts and ambition would have still shone through in the graphics department, as well as in the overall design of the game. The third party games we've seen on the Wii were usually plagued by two or all of the following traits:

1) Lacking controls.
2) Subpar graphics.
3) Lack of content, poor game design.

The supposed issues with motion controls also don't work as a universal excuse, because it was perfectly possible to create and sell good games on the Wii that barely used motion controls or didn't use them at all. I can once again point to Resident Evil 4 that was released in mid-2007 and shattered its sales expectations. Pointer functionality was easy to implement and a selling point for shooting games. There were of course also Nintendo games that proved that you didn't necessarily need motion controls to be successful on the Wii.

At the end of the day there really was a pathetically small number of games that made successful attempts at gesture-based motion contrlols so this may be an indication that it was more difficult to achieve than it could/should have been.

Addressing this part specifically, at the end of the day there was a pathetically small number of third party games that seriously tried, whether that concerns controls, graphics or content. I could believe there was a problem with the Wii and Nintendo, if it was clear that games were held back by the machine. But all the evidence we have, the actual games, doesn't support that Nintendo is the main culprit (which is DanneSandin's claim). There's a chance that Nintendo held some tools back, but that wouldn't really matter in the big picture, because third parties clearly didn't use the tools they actually had to their full potential (it wasn't even close).


Even with limitations, Nintendo addressed this by releasing motion plus, which shows they listened to someone at least lol, but it wasn't really used.

Some game that worked well with the limitations from 3rd parties was RE4 and Godfather. Both these games worked well as effort was put in. 

This is just a couple examples where developers who tried made good controls. So others who complained clearly did not play some of these games.

Motion+ should have been there day 1, the fact that it wasnt tells me that kinda half assed the whole motion thing. And when they did decide to finally release the add on, they thenselves barely supported the damn thing. Hell the other two support their add on crap more than Ninty did theirs and those two were far less popular. 

Probably with RE4 and Godfather, Bully etc, is they were ports of games  that had ALREADY been released on consoles that were still pretty popular at the time. Lets be real people are not going to buy a game again in droves just cause it has "better" controls. They just didnt make enough ORIGINAL content at the beginning and the ones they did made kinda sucked a bit. THe irony is the games that control like absolute crap sold a boat load (Just Dance) if your a developer and you see that, why would you even TRY? You wouldnt you would just ride on the dance coattails its cheaper and nets you more profit.


Agree with paragraph one.

As for paragraph two agree about them being ports, however the point I was making is devs should have seen the potential from those games.

TOTALLY AGREE with bad controlled games selling well. My GF (non-gamer) wanted just dance, I figured she wouldn't care and jsut want to dance, but she was getting very pissed of about the game not registering her moves. So she never got Just Dance 2-4, so she will never know if controls improved or not as she was dissapointed with the first game. I know that on kinect with JD 4, one of her friends has that and you can callorbrate yourself against the sensor or something along those lines, so I would assume the Wii version has a similar feature but who knows lol.



 

 

snowdog on 28 February 2013

Blimey, I'm away from these forums for a week or two and we get this sort of nonsense.

Having underpowered dev kits and out of date SDK and tool updates is normal. Happens all the time. Platform holders always assign different priorities to different developers. Even amongst their own first party developers let alone third parties. With new hardware development it's not uncommon for the highest priority first developers not to get final dev kits until a month or two before the console launches.

And there's no way in hell that Sony will be able to afford the losses incurred with having the PS4 at $399.99 let alone $349.99. Not going to happen. We're probably looking at $449.99 or maybe even as much as $499.99 given their choice of GPU and RAM.

Sony have really messed up with the PS4, they could end up with another Vita on their hands I'm afraid which could very well put the company under.



oniyide on 28 February 2013
Cobretti2 said:
oniyide said:
Cobretti2 said:
RolStoppable said:
gumby_trucker said:

This exchange reminded me of something I read a few years ago from a developer complaining about the Wii. I'll see if maybe I can dig it up, but the gist of it was about having a hard time making the most out of Wii's innovative controls due to some hardware limitations. At the time I remember thinking it sounded like the developer was saying you needed more processing power and/or memory to create meaningful implementations of gesture and motion based controls. This is also the reason the complaint stood out in my mind, as for once it seemed like a legitimate issue, and not one related to SD graphics or lack of advanced shaders.

Notice the bolded is referring  to controls and not graphics, so your rebuttle about Shin'en's technical achievements is not really relevant. At the end of the day there really was a pathetically small number of games that made successful attempts at gesture-based motion contrlols so this may be an indication that it was more difficult to achieve than it could/should have been.

My rebuttal is still relevant, because if developers were truly serious about the Wii, but held back by limitations regarding the controls, then their efforts and ambition would have still shone through in the graphics department, as well as in the overall design of the game. The third party games we've seen on the Wii were usually plagued by two or all of the following traits:

1) Lacking controls.
2) Subpar graphics.
3) Lack of content, poor game design.

The supposed issues with motion controls also don't work as a universal excuse, because it was perfectly possible to create and sell good games on the Wii that barely used motion controls or didn't use them at all. I can once again point to Resident Evil 4 that was released in mid-2007 and shattered its sales expectations. Pointer functionality was easy to implement and a selling point for shooting games. There were of course also Nintendo games that proved that you didn't necessarily need motion controls to be successful on the Wii.

At the end of the day there really was a pathetically small number of games that made successful attempts at gesture-based motion contrlols so this may be an indication that it was more difficult to achieve than it could/should have been.

Addressing this part specifically, at the end of the day there was a pathetically small number of third party games that seriously tried, whether that concerns controls, graphics or content. I could believe there was a problem with the Wii and Nintendo, if it was clear that games were held back by the machine. But all the evidence we have, the actual games, doesn't support that Nintendo is the main culprit (which is DanneSandin's claim). There's a chance that Nintendo held some tools back, but that wouldn't really matter in the big picture, because third parties clearly didn't use the tools they actually had to their full potential (it wasn't even close).


Even with limitations, Nintendo addressed this by releasing motion plus, which shows they listened to someone at least lol, but it wasn't really used.

Some game that worked well with the limitations from 3rd parties was RE4 and Godfather. Both these games worked well as effort was put in. 

This is just a couple examples where developers who tried made good controls. So others who complained clearly did not play some of these games.

Motion+ should have been there day 1, the fact that it wasnt tells me that kinda half assed the whole motion thing. And when they did decide to finally release the add on, they thenselves barely supported the damn thing. Hell the other two support their add on crap more than Ninty did theirs and those two were far less popular. 

Probably with RE4 and Godfather, Bully etc, is they were ports of games  that had ALREADY been released on consoles that were still pretty popular at the time. Lets be real people are not going to buy a game again in droves just cause it has "better" controls. They just didnt make enough ORIGINAL content at the beginning and the ones they did made kinda sucked a bit. THe irony is the games that control like absolute crap sold a boat load (Just Dance) if your a developer and you see that, why would you even TRY? You wouldnt you would just ride on the dance coattails its cheaper and nets you more profit.


Agree with paragraph one.

As for paragraph two agree about them being ports, however the point I was making is devs should have seen the potential from those games.

TOTALLY AGREE with bad controlled games selling well. My GF (non-gamer) wanted just dance, I figured she wouldn't care and jsut want to dance, but she was getting very pissed of about the game not registering her moves. So she never got Just Dance 2-4, so she will never know if controls improved or not as she was dissapointed with the first game. I know that on kinect with JD 4, one of her friends has that and you can callorbrate yourself against the sensor or something along those lines, so I would assume the Wii version has a similar feature but who knows lol.

Control wise for stuff like 3rd person shooters? Yeah sure, but would have they been worth it? Maybe maybe not, would the audience for those have been as big as the HD ones? I doubt it, but I do think they should have pursued it on Wii, BUT i can see why they didnt.

I find it funny your GF had issues with the controls, she seems to be one of the few ones who actually did, whereas most defenders of those games would say, she was missing the "point". Sounds like a keeper to me.  THe crazy thing is your GF is in the minority, Just Dance actually got MORE popular despite still having control issues. Which loops back to my other point, why even bother? The Kinect dance games are actually responsive, you cant even blame Ubi on that, the Wiimote just cannot track actual body movement, its not possible. 



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Gnac on 28 February 2013
oniyide said:

Motion+ should have been there day 1, the fact that it wasnt tells me that kinda half assed the whole motion thing. And when they did decide to finally release the add on, they thenselves barely supported the damn thing. Hell the other two support their add on crap more than Ninty did theirs and those two were far less popular.

The cost for the tech at a small enough scale to integrate into the Wiimote would have been prohibitive at the time. Nintendo's own investment in Gyration, the economies of scale, and the foresight to design an interface to accept the tech as a low-cost addon demonstrates that they did not "half-ass" it.

Few motion-controlled games need the accuracy of gyroscopic tech, requiring little more than gestures and pointer controls (though this is more a question of necessity and imagination in game design).

 

oniyide said:

The Kinect dance games are actually responsive, you cant even blame Ubi on that, the Wiimote just cannot track actual body movement, its not possible.

Funny thing is, Ubisoft released an accessory for the Wii, called the "Your Shape Camera". They could have supported it with games like Just Dance, but "half assed" it. Maybe uDraw taught them a lesson.



WHERE IS MY KORORINPA 3

oniyide on 28 February 2013
Gnac said:
oniyide said:

Motion+ should have been there day 1, the fact that it wasnt tells me that kinda half assed the whole motion thing. And when they did decide to finally release the add on, they thenselves barely supported the damn thing. Hell the other two support their add on crap more than Ninty did theirs and those two were far less popular.

The cost for the tech at a small enough scale to integrate into the Wiimote would have been prohibitive at the time. Nintendo's own investment in Gyration, the economies of scale, and the foresight to design an interface to accept the tech as a low-cost addon demonstrates that they did not "half-ass" it.

Few motion-controlled games need the accuracy of gyroscopic tech, requiring little more than gestures and pointer controls (though this is more a question of necessity and imagination in game design).

 

oniyide said:

The Kinect dance games are actually responsive, you cant even blame Ubi on that, the Wiimote just cannot track actual body movement, its not possible.

Funny thing is, Ubisoft released an accessory for the Wii, called the "Your Shape Camera". They could have supported it with games like Just Dance, but "half assed" it. Maybe uDraw taught them a lesson.

So they made a motion controller, and you mean to tell me they couldnt add the extra gyro for a few couple of bucks, cause it was too expensive? THe system was cheap as hell anyway, yeah i dont buy it, Im sticking with half assed, unless someone could show me that it would have been that much more expensive. Red Steel, LOZ TP, could have beneffited with extra motion fidelity. 

People were going to buy JD regardless with or without that edition, hell they bought it regardless of the fact it controlled like crap. Funny how JD turned out much better on Kinect when the tech actually functions. 



Gnac on 28 February 2013
oniyide said:
Gnac said:
oniyide said:

Motion+ should have been there day 1, the fact that it wasnt tells me that kinda half assed the whole motion thing. And when they did decide to finally release the add on, they thenselves barely supported the damn thing. Hell the other two support their add on crap more than Ninty did theirs and those two were far less popular.

The cost for the tech at a small enough scale to integrate into the Wiimote would have been prohibitive at the time. Nintendo's own investment in Gyration, the economies of scale, and the foresight to design an interface to accept the tech as a low-cost addon demonstrates that they did not "half-ass" it.

Few motion-controlled games need the accuracy of gyroscopic tech, requiring little more than gestures and pointer controls (though this is more a question of necessity and imagination in game design).

 

oniyide said:

The Kinect dance games are actually responsive, you cant even blame Ubi on that, the Wiimote just cannot track actual body movement, its not possible.

Funny thing is, Ubisoft released an accessory for the Wii, called the "Your Shape Camera". They could have supported it with games like Just Dance, but "half assed" it. Maybe uDraw taught them a lesson.

So they made a motion controller, and you mean to tell me they couldnt add the extra gyro for a few couple of bucks, cause it was too expensive? THe system was cheap as hell anyway, yeah i dont buy it, Im sticking with half assed, unless someone could show me that it would have been that much more expensive. Red Steel, LOZ TP, could have beneffited with extra motion fidelity. 

People were going to buy JD regardless with or without that edition, hell they bought it regardless of the fact it controlled like crap. Funny how JD turned out much better on Kinect when the tech actually functions. 

Where do you pull your facts from? Out of your half an ass?



WHERE IS MY KORORINPA 3

oniyide on 01 March 2013
Gnac said:
oniyide said:
Gnac said:
oniyide said:

Motion+ should have been there day 1, the fact that it wasnt tells me that kinda half assed the whole motion thing. And when they did decide to finally release the add on, they thenselves barely supported the damn thing. Hell the other two support their add on crap more than Ninty did theirs and those two were far less popular.

The cost for the tech at a small enough scale to integrate into the Wiimote would have been prohibitive at the time. Nintendo's own investment in Gyration, the economies of scale, and the foresight to design an interface to accept the tech as a low-cost addon demonstrates that they did not "half-ass" it.

Few motion-controlled games need the accuracy of gyroscopic tech, requiring little more than gestures and pointer controls (though this is more a question of necessity and imagination in game design).

 

oniyide said:

The Kinect dance games are actually responsive, you cant even blame Ubi on that, the Wiimote just cannot track actual body movement, its not possible.

Funny thing is, Ubisoft released an accessory for the Wii, called the "Your Shape Camera". They could have supported it with games like Just Dance, but "half assed" it. Maybe uDraw taught them a lesson.

So they made a motion controller, and you mean to tell me they couldnt add the extra gyro for a few couple of bucks, cause it was too expensive? THe system was cheap as hell anyway, yeah i dont buy it, Im sticking with half assed, unless someone could show me that it would have been that much more expensive. Red Steel, LOZ TP, could have beneffited with extra motion fidelity. 

People were going to buy JD regardless with or without that edition, hell they bought it regardless of the fact it controlled like crap. Funny how JD turned out much better on Kinect when the tech actually functions. 

Where do you pull your facts from? Out of your half an ass?


probably the same place where you are pulling yours from, im talking about the cost to the consumer. How much more would the WIi have cost if they just had the thing work the way it was supposed to from day 1? If you want to believe it would have been much higher then go ahead.



Gnac on 01 March 2013
oniyide said:
Gnac said:
oniyide said:
Gnac said:
oniyide said:

Motion+ should have been there day 1, the fact that it wasnt tells me that kinda half assed the whole motion thing. And when they did decide to finally release the add on, they thenselves barely supported the damn thing. Hell the other two support their add on crap more than Ninty did theirs and those two were far less popular.

The cost for the tech at a small enough scale to integrate into the Wiimote would have been prohibitive at the time. Nintendo's own investment in Gyration, the economies of scale, and the foresight to design an interface to accept the tech as a low-cost addon demonstrates that they did not "half-ass" it.

Few motion-controlled games need the accuracy of gyroscopic tech, requiring little more than gestures and pointer controls (though this is more a question of necessity and imagination in game design).

 

oniyide said:

The Kinect dance games are actually responsive, you cant even blame Ubi on that, the Wiimote just cannot track actual body movement, its not possible.

Funny thing is, Ubisoft released an accessory for the Wii, called the "Your Shape Camera". They could have supported it with games like Just Dance, but "half assed" it. Maybe uDraw taught them a lesson.

So they made a motion controller, and you mean to tell me they couldnt add the extra gyro for a few couple of bucks, cause it was too expensive? THe system was cheap as hell anyway, yeah i dont buy it, Im sticking with half assed, unless someone could show me that it would have been that much more expensive. Red Steel, LOZ TP, could have beneffited with extra motion fidelity. 

People were going to buy JD regardless with or without that edition, hell they bought it regardless of the fact it controlled like crap. Funny how JD turned out much better on Kinect when the tech actually functions. 

Where do you pull your facts from? Out of your half an ass?


probably the same place where you are pulling yours from, im talking about the cost to the consumer. How much more would the WIi have cost if they just had the thing work the way it was supposed to from day 1? If you want to believe it would have been much higher then go ahead.

Whoa, so you have the other half of this half of an ass that I've been hoarding. we should put them together and see if it shits out answers.



WHERE IS MY KORORINPA 3