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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Nintendo and 3rd Party Development: Solving the Problem

pokoko said:

But there are reasons for that, and if there are reasons, then they can potentially do something about it.  Nintendo lost a lot of gamers because they ignored other portions of the market besides platformers.  Now they've said that they want them back.  This discussion is about how they can do that, if they can do that, and if they should even want that.

I don't see why they can't increase the amount of other genres on Nintendo systems, though it won't be easy.  They've been in their own world for such a long time.

But, being in their own world is seemingly working out for them. In my opinion, Nintendo shouldn't directly compete with Sony and Microsoft.



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pokoko said:
AgentZorn said:
pokoko said:
Good post, and I can't really argue with most of what you've said.  Nintendo is fantastic at some things but they're also well behind the curve in others.  From a holistic approach, they would need to improve areas like account management and their online experience besides increasing their investment in other genres if they want to steal away core gamers from Sony and Microsoft.

 


There's a bit of a problem with that, the core gamers probably don't want Nintendo products.

But there are reasons for that, and if there are reasons, then they can potentially do something about it.  Nintendo lost a lot of gamers because they ignored other portions of the market besides platformers.  Now they've said that they want them back.  This discussion is about how they can do that, if they can do that, and if they should even want that.

I don't see why they can't increase the amount of other genres on Nintendo systems, though it won't be easy.  They've been in their own world for such a long time.

Nintendo never had big titles form developers such as EA, Activison, Take Two on its platforms. So basically every consumer who is attached to those brands will likely never choose a Wii over a PS or an Xbox. It's useless trying to "steal" those gamers to begin with.

What Nintendo has to do is creating an alternative library made of different kinds of hardcore games, different to those genres which are more popular on PS and Xbox. This is an objective they are already trying to achieve on 3DS, the should just try to do the same on WiiU by making collaborations and bulding strong reletionships with a selected circle of developers.



RolStoppable said:
pokoko said:

 

1. By that logic, it doesn't make sense to support the PS4 and Nextbox in their first year either, because the installed bases are going to be tiny and the majority of software sales will still happen on the PS3 and 360.

2. This point is conveniently ignoring the PSP, a system that had proven that it can't sell any kind of games on a worldwide basis, but still continued to get much better third party support than the Wii.

3. This entire point (including everything I cut off) is conveniently ignoring the DS. Do you have the slightest bit of proof that Nintendo's marketing and first party software output was different between the Wii and the DS? As far as I am concerned, there was no significant difference in how Nintendo handled these two systems. However, the resulting third party support was worlds apart. Explain why.

Personally I think its the exploding development costs that everyone seems to be downplaying. What are companies going to do when there is no install base early next-gen and they need to sell 2 mil copies just to break even?



pokoko said:
AgentZorn said:
pokoko said:
Good post, and I can't really argue with most of what you've said.  Nintendo is fantastic at some things but they're also well behind the curve in others.  From a holistic approach, they would need to improve areas like account management and their online experience besides increasing their investment in other genres if they want to steal away core gamers from Sony and Microsoft.

 


There's a bit of a problem with that, the core gamers probably don't want Nintendo products.

But there are reasons for that, and if there are reasons, then they can potentially do something about it.  Nintendo lost a lot of gamers because they ignored other portions of the market besides platformers.  Now they've said that they want them back.  This discussion is about how they can do that, if they can do that, and if they should even want that.

I don't see why they can't increase the amount of other genres on Nintendo systems, though it won't be easy.  They've been in their own world for such a long time.


do you honestly belief that in case if Nintendo create super successful Mature (whatever this mean) IP which sells over 10 Millions on WiiU the 3rd parties come in drones to support Nintendo, i thing NO.

 

AC3DS was cancelled with excuse because it was here too many core games at 3DS at this time

 

"[The cancellation] was a decision made back in September 2010," Martinez said. "It wasn't due to anything that took place. We felt the machine already had a number of hardcore games for its release."



Veknoid_Outcast said:
pokoko, this is a well-meaning thread but I think you're projecting too many of your own video game standards onto the industry in general and Nintendo in particular.

If you look at the sales numbers, Super Mario, Pokemon, Mario Kart, and Wii Sports sold (and continue to sell) better than games like Halo, Uncharted, and God of War. There is a huge demand for the games Nintendo makes.

Nintendo started losing the console war because Sony made a better mousetrap. They landed all the sexy, must-have software. But Nintendo never went away. Even against the PS2, arguably the finest console ever made, and surrounded by a serious stigma, Nintendo managed to survive. And then, a few years later, it revolutionized the industry.

As much as your OP wants to let third parties entirely off the hook, there is some truth to the idea that third parties are wary of publishing games on Nintendo platforms. Is it justified? Historically, yes. But because of that unfortunate history, third-party developers have fallen into a vicious circle, a self-fulfilling prophecy whereby the reaction to the belief that third-party games will fail on Nintendo platforms causes them to fail.

In the end, third-party support -- actually the better term is third-party popularity -- on Nintendo systems is a problem that cannot be solved in a single generation. Third-party developers need to take a leap of faith. They need to take several years to build up momentum and win over Nintendo system owners. The rub is that third-party developers have no short-term reason to support Nintendo since they can move their product more successfully on other platforms. One might argue that suffering some early losses on Nintendo platforms might pay off in the long run, but what developer would want to take such a risk?

Over the past few months, according to reports, executives at Nintendo have been working to forge relationships with third-party developers and publishers. I believe Miyamoto met personally with many of them. Nintendo is trying to fix it's Achilles' heel during the seventh generation: lack of high-profile third-party games. But, as I wrote earlier, it requires a leap of faith from these companies. Did EA, Ubisoft, and Warner Bros. expect a few launch games to undo 16 years of video game history?

So the question isn't "what can Nintendo do to make third-party developers comfortable and successful?" It's "should third-party developers invest money and resources developing for Nintendo systems if the payoff will come much later, or, perhaps, not at all?"

Good post.

I want to point out, though, that I'm working from what I think is Nintendo's own shift toward the core market.  If they wanted to keep doing what they've been doing then I wouldn't have a problem with that.  With that as a basis, then who is to blame stops being a factor.  It's not something Nintendo can dwell on.

I also think you're right in that there might not be enough incentive to develop for the Wii U.  The only way that it becomes a no-brainer to develop for a Nintendo system is if there is very little extra time/cost associated with a multi-platform release.  We don't know what will happen, but the Wii brand might get left out in the cold.  Again.

What about the next cycle, though?  What if Nintendo had a device that rivaled whatever Sony and Microsoft had, or at least only trailed by a small degree?  I see no reason why a Nintendo system wouldn't get third-party support in that scenario.



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RolStoppable said:

3. This entire point (including everything I cut off) is conveniently ignoring the DS. Do you have the slightest bit of proof that Nintendo's marketing and first party software output was different between the Wii and the DS? As far as I am concerned, there was no significant difference in how Nintendo handled these two systems. However, the resulting third party support was worlds apart. Explain why.

Maybe because Nintendo is the undisputed leader in handheld gaming, going on 20 something years now? Nintendo didn't have to try and shape the DS ecosystem anymore than they had to try to shape the NES and SNES ecosystems. It was never in question whether or not the third parties were going to be there.

Come on, Rol. You are better than this!



pokoko said:

Let's stop with all the "third-party publishers are dumb and mean to Nintendo" nonsense and look at the real issues Nintendo has to confront.

1. Developing core games for the Wii U's first year didn't make a lot of sense to third-party developers to start with. They're trying to appeal to the PS3/360's massive installed base while it's still buying software. Creating a Wii U version would mean either unacceptable delays or late ports that don't sell. Those that did try it, like Ubisoft with AC3, saw horrible numbers that almost certainly damaged their commitment to support the Wii U--and I can't blame them. It's a business; if they don't make money then they have to start letting people go.

2. The trouble with the Wii was that it was too far below the lower boundaries of the content being developed for the PS3/360. This created a situation where, for the most part, you could either develop for the Wii OR you could develop for the PS3 AND the 360. Keeping in mind that everyone has limited resources, which situation sounds like the better investment for a core title? A core-centric fan-base that's two systems strong, or a fan-base that with a high casual content on a single system?

The good news is that the Wii U not getting current gen multi-platform games might not be important; as I've written above, there are understandable reasons for that. The bad news is that the Wii U might not get next gen multi-platform games, either, for the same reasons the Wii didn't. We don't know that, of course, but it's a possibility. Only time will tell if the Wii U's capabilities are too far below those of the PS4/720 for studios to run concurrent development.

3. Let's be real. Nintendo is more responsible for this situation than anyone else. I'm not even talking about their infamously draconian handling of third-parties in previous eras, either. That's in the past. What I'm talking about is the environment and vibe that Nintendo has created for their own home consoles.

System manufacturers don't just build a piece of hardware, throw it out into the wilds, then forget about it. No one does that. Instead, they support it with first-party software. However, in doing that, they're creating an image, an association for people to relate with. Now, no one is going to blame Nintendo for having an innocent, kid-centered image during the NES, or even SNES period. Gaming started to evolve after that, though, with new genres and new content directions popping up all over the place.

New genres and directions which Nintendo completely ignored.

This is where Nintendo lost me, personally. I wanted more dynamic storytelling, more tension, more drama, more complex characters, more variety, more conflict, and different game mechanics. Long story short, Nintendo let me go without a fight. Maybe they thought it was all a fad, that everyone would come running back to platformers, that adult gamers would always be a niche market. I really don't know, though I'd love to ask them about it.

Fast forward to the present, and what kind of vibe does each console manufacturer present? What does each of them do in terms of creating customer association? Microsoft has Halo, Gears, Fable, and Forza at the forefront. Pretty obvious who they want to appeal to, right? Sony has IPs all across the board, like Uncharted, Gran Turismo, Killzone, INfamous, God of War, Little Big Planet, and Ratchet and Clank.

And Nintendo? Do I even need to list them for anyone?

All I can figure is that they assumed third-parties would attract other types of gamers for them. Instead, publishers and developers migrated to where the new markets were being established, and honestly, I can't really blame them. We're talking about real businesses with real employees, not school-yard social groups. Phrases like "turned their backs on Nintendo" are ludicrous.

Ultimately, if Nintendo wants customers who prefer other genres and dynamics then they're going to have to do exactly what Microsoft and Sony have done, which is to create hardware and games that will attract those types of gamers. If they succeed, the third-party developers will follow.  We know they have the resources, and that there are plenty of studios out there who would love to work under the protection of a powerful publisher.  In all fairness, we can even say that Nintendo has made some nice inroads in that direction already.  However, there is definitely more work to be done.

So, does anyone agree?  Disagree?  Believe that Nintendo should stay niche and keep their current content model?  Does anyone have any real-world solutions that don't involve conspiracy theories or shifting all the responsibility to outside publishers and developers?

You can't shoot down everything that has good arguments and/or evidence backing it as conspiracy theories. If you could, I guess Stalin did not bomb a soviet village to have an excuse to attack Finland, and MK Ultra never existed.



I LOVE ICELAND!

freebs2 said:


Nintendo never had big titles form developers such as EA, Activison, Take Two on its platforms. So basically every consumer who is attached to those brands will likely never choose a Wii over a PS or an Xbox. It's useless trying to "steal" those gamers to begin with.

What Nintendo has to do is creating an alternative library made of different kinds of hardcore games, different to those genres which are more popular on PS and Xbox. This is an objective they are already trying to achieve on 3DS, the should just try to do the same on WiiU by making collaborations and bulding strong reletionships with a selected circle of developers.

That's a viable path as well.  They don't necessarily have to steal away gamers, I suppose, but instead make the Wii U the "second console" for a lot of people.  I think that's a very real market path.  Make it attractive enough and core gamers will want it.



They got to solve the '' who cares about third parties I buy Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games lawl'' mentality and also Nintendo need to put a third partie friendly hardware



Bet reminder: I bet with Tboned51 that Splatoon won't reach the 1 million shipped mark by the end of 2015. I win if he loses and I lose if I lost.

freebs2 said:
bananaking21 said:
zippy said:
Look at the Rayman situation..A game that was developed especially for Nintendo's new hardware, utilizing all the unique gampad features, and what happens? A complete game is suddenly held back several months so it can ported to Microsoft and Sony platforms thus denying WiiU owners the chance to play the game now.

And this is a 3rd party dev Nintendo is supposed to have a decent relationship with, Nintendo have no hope when it comes to 3rd parties sadly.


do you really blame them? ubisofts two previous efforts were ZombieU and AC3. assasins creed sold just over 100K while ZombieU sold just 320K while being bundled. and ZombieU is the third best selling WiiU game. thye obviously spent alot of money making rayman and they obviously want to make money selling the game

Edit : oooppss. i ment 320K not 32K. sorry!

How much do you really expect to sell if you're launching a new IP on launch on a new platform without any userbase?

To make a comparison Kameo: elements of power (the only new IP on 360's launch if I remember right), a first party IP, has sold 310k lifetime.

Also, every possible AC fan od COD fan has already bought a PC, or a 360, or a Ps3. How much did they expected to sell?

Rayman Legends, on the other hand, is a different story. The platform genre is easily the most popular on the console (the best selling game is a platform), you don't have any competition from other games, WiiU owners are eager to get new games, and then what do you do? Posticipate the release date by 6 months... are they nuts? I understand they want to make it a multiplatform game, but the postponement is totally senseless.

thats exactly the problem with the WiiU. now rayman i agree is a different case. but still publishers will surely still look at their games on the platform to decide whether or not they happy with it. honestly i dont agree with postoning the WiiU version of the game. i think its a rather stupid idea. but i really dont blame ubisoft for doing it