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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - New Monolith Soft Game - Codenamed "X" - In-game footage!

DanneSandin said:
Viper1 said:
DanneSandin said:
Viper1 said:

So she ignores the fact the Wi U can also do tesselation.  Or the fact the texture size is also up to 8192 x 8192.

From Gearbox, "[On Wii U] you’re going to see textures at a resolution that you haven’t seen on [the current] generation."

Well, I don't know at all; I'm simply passing on our conversation because it didn't quite add up to me. She used all this teach talk, and I just don't have a clue what it all means. It sounded logical since I don't know a thing, and at the same time it went against everything I've been thinking about next gen. Simply put; she gave me better arguments than anyone else have managed to do here that PS720 will be leaps ahead of Wii U.

Point is that she is factually incorrect.  And it's physically impossible to have the same power gap as before.   That would require Orbis and Durango to have about 44 TFLOPS of processing power.  Or about the same performance power as 12 HD 7970's.

More powerful?  Yes.  Same gap?  Absolutely impossible. Not even remotely close to the same gap.

This is DC to PS2 gap.   Not Wii to PS3 gap.  Anybody claiming as such either doesn't know much about the technology (excusable) or should damn well know better (inexcusable).

Yes, I guess that we won't see the same sort of gap since Wii U have much newer technology to the upcoming PS720, than what Wii had to PS360, but all signs are pointing to the fact that PS720 will be a whole deal more powerful. There's just nu way denying that. 2gig RAM vs 4-8?! 3 cores vs 8? Question is if 3rd party games will be able to run smoothly on Wii U this gen, or if we'll get crippled versions yet again, or if 3rd parties simply just won't bother. This is troubling even if we won't see a Wii/PS360 situation again.

Well, let's look at something like DC vs PS2 vs GC vs Xbox.

CPU:
DC - 200 Mhz
PS2 - 294 Mhz
GC - 485 Mhz
Xbox -733 Mhz

RAM:
DC - 34 MB (16 MB Main, 8 MB video, 2 MB audio)
PS2 - 38 MB (32 MB main, 4 MB video, 2 MB audio)
GC - 43 MB (32 MB main [24 MB 1T-SRAM and 16 Mb DRAM], 3 MB 1T-SRAM embedded video )
Xbox - 64 MB (unified RAM)

GFLOPS:
DC - 1.4
PS2 - 6.2
GC -10.6
Xbox - 83 (inflated...real world is about 23)

Take a good look at those GFLOPS ratings.   That PS2 to Xbox rating gap looks pretty close to what we're looking at between Wii U and Orbis/Durango (~600 GFLOPS to ~1.8 TFLOPS respectively).  

Game ports won't be as much of a problem going from Orbis/Durango to Wii U as it was from PS3/X360 to Wii.  First off, the architectural difference was a massive problem to overcome for the game engines.  They were designed for multicore CPU's and programmable shader GPU's.   That issue will no longer exist.  That alone was the single largest barrier for Wii getting mutliplatform titles.

It should also be noted that the new consoles are also expected to clocked much lower than the PS3/X360. 1.8 Ghz range rather than the 3.2 Ghz clocks of the current consoles.   That measn the trouble that Tecmo Koei had with the low clocks of the Wii U will have to be taken into consideration for the new consoles too.  It doesn't matter how many cores you have if your game engine is clock speed dependant.   That helps the Wii U since the new game engines will be geared more towards the Wii U's clock speed instead of the X360 and PS3's.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

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Viper1 said:
DanneSandin said:

Yes, I guess that we won't see the same sort of gap since Wii U have much newer technology to the upcoming PS720, than what Wii had to PS360, but all signs are pointing to the fact that PS720 will be a whole deal more powerful. There's just nu way denying that. 2gig RAM vs 4-8?! 3 cores vs 8? Question is if 3rd party games will be able to run smoothly on Wii U this gen, or if we'll get crippled versions yet again, or if 3rd parties simply just won't bother. This is troubling even if we won't see a Wii/PS360 situation again.

Well, let's look at something like DC vs PS2 vs GC vs Xbox.

CPU:
DC - 200 Mhz
PS2 - 294 Mhz
GC - 485 Mhz
Xbox -733 Mhz

RAM:
DC - 34 MB (16 MB Main, 8 MB video, 2 MB audio)
PS2 - 38 MB (32 MB main, 4 MB video, 2 MB audio)
GC - 43 MB (32 MB main [24 MB 1T-SRAM and 16 Mb DRAM], 3 MB 1T-SRAM embedded video )
Xbox - 64 MB (unified RAM)

GFLOPS:
DC - 1.4
PS2 - 6.2
GC -10.6
Xbox - 83 (inflated...real world is about 23)

Take a good look at those GFLOPS ratings.   That PS2 to Xbox rating gap looks pretty close to what we're looking at between Wii U and Orbis/Durango (~600 GFLOPS to ~1.8 TFLOPS respectively).  

Game ports won't be as much of a problem going from Orbis/Durango to Wii U as it was from PS3/X360 to Wii.  First off, the architectural difference was a massive problem to overcome for the game engines.  They were designed for multicore CPU's and programmable shader GPU's.   That issue will no longer exist.  That alone was the single largest barrier for Wii getting mutliplatform titles.

It should also be noted that the new consoles are also expected to clocked much lower than the PS3/X360. 1.8 Ghz range rather than the 3.2 Ghz clocks of the current consoles.   That measn the trouble that Tecmo Koei had with the low clocks of the Wii U will have to be taken into consideration for the new consoles too.  It doesn't matter how many cores you have if your game engine is clock speed dependant.   That helps the Wii U since the new game engines will be geared more towards the Wii U's clock speed instead of the X360 and PS3's.

Damn, xbox was already beating back then! As far as I understood it, PS720 will be aching more to a PC (dunno if that's the components or the architecture), so how will that effect Wii U? I understand that Wii U won't suffer from the same barriers, but doesn't it have an enhanced Wii GPU? Or was it a CPU? Wouldn't that be kind of a trouble? And it's really lacking RAM when compared to PS720... Now, I don't have any clue how all of this will play out, but surely that has to mean there will be some differences?



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

noname2200 said:
Viper1 said:

Point is that she is factually incorrect.  And it's physically impossible to have the same power gap as before.   That would require Orbis and Durango to have about 44 TFLOPS of processing power.  Or about the same performance power as 12 HD 7970's.

More powerful?  Yes.  Same gap?  Absolutely impossible. Not even remotely close to the same gap.

This is DC to PS2 gap.   Not Wii to PS3 gap.  Anybody claiming as such either doesn't know much about the technology (excusable) or should damn well know better (inexcusable).

It's simple math, dude. The Wii U has, like, three cores. The other systems have a whopping eight. Rounded up, that means Orbis/Durango are already three times more powerful, because that's how these things work. Then you add in the fact that the Wii U has 2 GBs of RAM, while the other systems have 4 GB. That's a 2x difference. Multiply that with the 3x difference in processors, and that's already 6x the power.

BUT then the Wii U uses a full GB of RAM on the OS, so it really only has 1 GB, while the other systems utilize 3.5 GBs of RAM, so that's a 3.5x difference. Multiply that by the 6x figure from earlier, and that's already a 21x power difference. 21 times!!!1! And we haven't even gotten into the fact that non-Nintendo systems get a racial bonus vis-a-vis Nintendo systems. Looking through my D&D books, that amounts to another 3x multiplier, plus 2 d10+1.

As you can see, this means the Wii U is 63 and 2d10+1 times less powerful than the competing systems. In other words, it IS still closer to rival systems than the Wii was to the PS3/360.

Wow, I understand this post! Am I tech-y guy now?

I believe Viper1, it's not going to be the same leap.



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DanneSandin said:
Viper1 said:

Well, let's look at something like DC vs PS2 vs GC vs Xbox.

CPU:
DC - 200 Mhz
PS2 - 294 Mhz
GC - 485 Mhz
Xbox -733 Mhz

RAM:
DC - 34 MB (16 MB Main, 8 MB video, 2 MB audio)
PS2 - 38 MB (32 MB main, 4 MB video, 2 MB audio)
GC - 43 MB (32 MB main [24 MB 1T-SRAM and 16 Mb DRAM], 3 MB 1T-SRAM embedded video )
Xbox - 64 MB (unified RAM)

GFLOPS:
DC - 1.4
PS2 - 6.2
GC -10.6
Xbox - 83 (inflated...real world is about 23)

Take a good look at those GFLOPS ratings.   That PS2 to Xbox rating gap looks pretty close to what we're looking at between Wii U and Orbis/Durango (~600 GFLOPS to ~1.8 TFLOPS respectively).  

Game ports won't be as much of a problem going from Orbis/Durango to Wii U as it was from PS3/X360 to Wii.  First off, the architectural difference was a massive problem to overcome for the game engines.  They were designed for multicore CPU's and programmable shader GPU's.   That issue will no longer exist.  That alone was the single largest barrier for Wii getting mutliplatform titles.

It should also be noted that the new consoles are also expected to clocked much lower than the PS3/X360. 1.8 Ghz range rather than the 3.2 Ghz clocks of the current consoles.   That measn the trouble that Tecmo Koei had with the low clocks of the Wii U will have to be taken into consideration for the new consoles too.  It doesn't matter how many cores you have if your game engine is clock speed dependant.   That helps the Wii U since the new game engines will be geared more towards the Wii U's clock speed instead of the X360 and PS3's.

Damn, xbox was already beating back then! As far as I understood it, PS720 will be aching more to a PC (dunno if that's the components or the architecture), so how will that effect Wii U? I understand that Wii U won't suffer from the same barriers, but doesn't it have an enhanced Wii GPU? Or was it a CPU? Wouldn't that be kind of a trouble? And it's really lacking RAM when compared to PS720... Now, I don't have any clue how all of this will play out, but surely that has to mean there will be some differences?

Orbis and Durango will be using x86 hardware which is common in PC's.  While the Wii U still uses PowerPC (as found in GC, Wii, PS3, X360 and many servers and workstations).  It's not really that big of a deal.

The Wii U CPU is based on the CPU in the GC and thereby based on the CPU in the Wii.  However, that's kind of the case with all PowerPC CPU's.  They are a continual extension of themselves with each new edition. Even the top of the line Power7 still has many of the elements that made up the GC and Wii's CPU's.

It's not lacking as badly as you think.   With tesselation, texture streaming and megatextures, RAM can be more lax than ever.  There is also diminishing returns with RAM.  Go look at a PC game review with different graphics cards and you'll notice that the VRAM above 1 GB doesn't really play much of a role until very high resolutions and/or crazy amounts of AA are applied.

I already stated a gap will exist.   Just that it will be much more akin to the PS2 to Xbox gap than the Wii to PS3 gap.  Just look at the numbers I gave above.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

Viper1 said:
DanneSandin said:
Viper1 said:

Well, let's look at something like DC vs PS2 vs GC vs Xbox.

CPU:
DC - 200 Mhz
PS2 - 294 Mhz
GC - 485 Mhz
Xbox -733 Mhz

RAM:
DC - 34 MB (16 MB Main, 8 MB video, 2 MB audio)
PS2 - 38 MB (32 MB main, 4 MB video, 2 MB audio)
GC - 43 MB (32 MB main [24 MB 1T-SRAM and 16 Mb DRAM], 3 MB 1T-SRAM embedded video )
Xbox - 64 MB (unified RAM)

GFLOPS:
DC - 1.4
PS2 - 6.2
GC -10.6
Xbox - 83 (inflated...real world is about 23)

Take a good look at those GFLOPS ratings.   That PS2 to Xbox rating gap looks pretty close to what we're looking at between Wii U and Orbis/Durango (~600 GFLOPS to ~1.8 TFLOPS respectively).  

Game ports won't be as much of a problem going from Orbis/Durango to Wii U as it was from PS3/X360 to Wii.  First off, the architectural difference was a massive problem to overcome for the game engines.  They were designed for multicore CPU's and programmable shader GPU's.   That issue will no longer exist.  That alone was the single largest barrier for Wii getting mutliplatform titles.

It should also be noted that the new consoles are also expected to clocked much lower than the PS3/X360. 1.8 Ghz range rather than the 3.2 Ghz clocks of the current consoles.   That measn the trouble that Tecmo Koei had with the low clocks of the Wii U will have to be taken into consideration for the new consoles too.  It doesn't matter how many cores you have if your game engine is clock speed dependant.   That helps the Wii U since the new game engines will be geared more towards the Wii U's clock speed instead of the X360 and PS3's.

Damn, xbox was already beating back then! As far as I understood it, PS720 will be aching more to a PC (dunno if that's the components or the architecture), so how will that effect Wii U? I understand that Wii U won't suffer from the same barriers, but doesn't it have an enhanced Wii GPU? Or was it a CPU? Wouldn't that be kind of a trouble? And it's really lacking RAM when compared to PS720... Now, I don't have any clue how all of this will play out, but surely that has to mean there will be some differences?

Orbis and Durango will be using x86 hardware which is common in PC's.  While the Wii U still uses PowerPC (as found in GC, Wii, PS3, X360 and many servers and workstations).  It's not really that big of a deal.

The Wii U CPU is based on the CPU in the GC and thereby based on the CPU in the Wii.  However, that's kind of the case with all PowerPC CPU's.  They are a continual extension of themselves with each new edition. Even the top of the line Power7 still has many of the elements that made up the GC and Wii's CPU's.

It's not lacking as badly as you think.   With tesselation, texture streaming and megatextures, RAM can be more lax than ever.  There is also diminishing returns with RAM.  Go look at a PC game review with different graphics cards and you'll notice that the VRAM above 1 GB doesn't really play much of a role until very high resolutions and/or crazy amounts of AA are applied.

I already stated a gap will exist.   Just that it will be much more akin to the PS2 to Xbox gap than the Wii to PS3 gap.  Just look at the numbers I gave above.

Yeah, I understood that you think that this will be more like the PS2 vs xbox situation rather than Wii to PS360. But I'm still wondering if this will mean that Wii U will get more good ports than Wii; will 3rd party supporters be bothered to port games? And I do mean good games, not like those gimped CoD Wii got.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

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It looks bloody amazing and I'm past all of these specification arguments, at this point it's how devs roll with graphics and Monolith rolls like no other. Also, dunno if anyone else picked up on this, but check out Monolith's website in Google Chrome(for translation): http://www.monolithsoft.co.jp/recruit/jobs.html looks like they need a network programmer, so that Monster Hunter style online play pretty much confirmed. Ah can't wait, hope they don't rush it for Nintendo though.



DanneSandin said:
Viper1 said:
DanneSandin said:

Damn, xbox was already beating back then! As far as I understood it, PS720 will be aching more to a PC (dunno if that's the components or the architecture), so how will that effect Wii U? I understand that Wii U won't suffer from the same barriers, but doesn't it have an enhanced Wii GPU? Or was it a CPU? Wouldn't that be kind of a trouble? And it's really lacking RAM when compared to PS720... Now, I don't have any clue how all of this will play out, but surely that has to mean there will be some differences?

Orbis and Durango will be using x86 hardware which is common in PC's.  While the Wii U still uses PowerPC (as found in GC, Wii, PS3, X360 and many servers and workstations).  It's not really that big of a deal.

The Wii U CPU is based on the CPU in the GC and thereby based on the CPU in the Wii.  However, that's kind of the case with all PowerPC CPU's.  They are a continual extension of themselves with each new edition. Even the top of the line Power7 still has many of the elements that made up the GC and Wii's CPU's.

It's not lacking as badly as you think.   With tesselation, texture streaming and megatextures, RAM can be more lax than ever.  There is also diminishing returns with RAM.  Go look at a PC game review with different graphics cards and you'll notice that the VRAM above 1 GB doesn't really play much of a role until very high resolutions and/or crazy amounts of AA are applied.

I already stated a gap will exist.   Just that it will be much more akin to the PS2 to Xbox gap than the Wii to PS3 gap.  Just look at the numbers I gave above.

Yeah, I understood that you think that this will be more like the PS2 vs xbox situation rather than Wii to PS360. But I'm still wondering if this will mean that Wii U will get more good ports than Wii; will 3rd party supporters be bothered to port games? And I do mean good games, not like those gimped CoD Wii got.

Shouldn't be anywhere near the issue the Wii had.   It can use the same game engines and pretty much the same art assets this time.  Porting to Wii was like making a completely new game from scratch.  That's expensive.   Porting to Wii U can largely take place during simultaneous development with the main development team with little added resources.  



The rEVOLution is not being televised

Viper1 said:
DanneSandin said:
Viper1 said:
DanneSandin said:

Damn, xbox was already beating back then! As far as I understood it, PS720 will be aching more to a PC (dunno if that's the components or the architecture), so how will that effect Wii U? I understand that Wii U won't suffer from the same barriers, but doesn't it have an enhanced Wii GPU? Or was it a CPU? Wouldn't that be kind of a trouble? And it's really lacking RAM when compared to PS720... Now, I don't have any clue how all of this will play out, but surely that has to mean there will be some differences?

Orbis and Durango will be using x86 hardware which is common in PC's.  While the Wii U still uses PowerPC (as found in GC, Wii, PS3, X360 and many servers and workstations).  It's not really that big of a deal.

The Wii U CPU is based on the CPU in the GC and thereby based on the CPU in the Wii.  However, that's kind of the case with all PowerPC CPU's.  They are a continual extension of themselves with each new edition. Even the top of the line Power7 still has many of the elements that made up the GC and Wii's CPU's.

It's not lacking as badly as you think.   With tesselation, texture streaming and megatextures, RAM can be more lax than ever.  There is also diminishing returns with RAM.  Go look at a PC game review with different graphics cards and you'll notice that the VRAM above 1 GB doesn't really play much of a role until very high resolutions and/or crazy amounts of AA are applied.

I already stated a gap will exist.   Just that it will be much more akin to the PS2 to Xbox gap than the Wii to PS3 gap.  Just look at the numbers I gave above.

Yeah, I understood that you think that this will be more like the PS2 vs xbox situation rather than Wii to PS360. But I'm still wondering if this will mean that Wii U will get more good ports than Wii; will 3rd party supporters be bothered to port games? And I do mean good games, not like those gimped CoD Wii got.

Shouldn't be anywhere near the issue the Wii had.   It can use the same game engines and pretty much the same art assets this time.  Porting to Wii was like making a completely new game from scratch.  That's expensive.   Porting to Wii U can largely take place during simultaneous development with the main development team with little added resources.  

I hope it all goes down the way you seem to expect it to!



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

Great breakdown of the DC to XBox1 generation, Viper.



CGI-Quality said:

Good Lord! Can you imagine the day when a console can do that (highly unlikely that it will ever get there)?


It could but at that point it won't be as impressive then as it sounds now, we'll probably be used to that power range by then.