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Forums - General - Why do some believe these characteristics of a Creator?

At the risk of sounding like a crack-pot, I had these same questions until I had an encounter with the creator.
Instantly I realized that it was all vain folly and we have as much capacity to understand Him as an ant has of understanding NYC. An ant could deduce people are busy going to work (as it is) but not all the ants in all of history combined could ever understand the social/economic/political realities of NYC. It's simply beyond them. To an even greater degree the Creator is beyond humankinds understanding.

I understand why the Bible says no one can look on the 'face' of God, even the tiniest reveal I got blew my mind so completely, was so far beyond my wildest imaginings I thought for sure I'd just gone crazy - and never ever wanted to be sane again. I understand why angels sing. Glory beyond glory.

I can't explain and I no longer try to find explanation. I just know and accept that He is. My life is better for it.



 

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Gamerace said:
At the risk of sounding like a crack-pot, I had these same questions until I had an encounter with the creator.
Instantly I realized that it was all vain folly and we have as much capacity to understand Him as an ant has of understanding NYC. An ant could deduce people are busy going to work (as it is) but not all the ants in all of history combined could ever understand the social/economic/political realities of NYC. It's simply beyond them. To an even greater degree the Creator is beyond humankinds understanding.

I understand why the Bible says no one can look on the 'face' of God, even the tiniest reveal I got blew my mind so completely, was so far beyond my wildest imaginings I thought for sure I'd just gone crazy - and never ever wanted to be sane again. I understand why angels sing. Glory beyond glory.

I can't explain and I no longer try to find explanation. I just know and accept that He is. My life is better for it.


But do you believe in those characteristics?



dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:

So your argumen is that God can't see information in any other way other than your incredibly specific example? Got it. 

You're making quite the leap here. I never claimed to know anything... I don't. If we accept that God exists, things like this are just way, way beyond human understanding due to our fixed, limited perspective and finite intelligence. This was a THEORY related to one way it MIGHT be possible for pre-knowledge and free-will to coexist. I also defined a difference between pre-knowledge and pre-determination (first one being passive, second one being active).

No, I actually just repeated what you said - by definition God sees all things - every possible concept. You keep retarding God. One concept may be valid, but God sees every single one, thus nullifying your entire point. Stop saying it's beyond Human understanding - that's a copout and an outright lie. These are concepts we understand - determinism and free will.

You have no point, and you have no case. I wish you would stop wasting both of our time and simply admit it.

First, if you would look at the argument based on the analogies I gave, you would see there is a point to be made there, or at least an interesting discussion that 'brings something new to the table' as you said earlier. I understand if you think the axioms are crap, or if you say we shouldn't assume a supernatural God would have supernatural powers (wait, what?), but don't say there was no point or case made. You're annoyed because I won't jump on the atheist logic train where you get to prove (based on black & white, pre-designed, ad nauseum arguments) that I'm stupid or illogical for not thinking like you and get to pat yourself on the back for being 'smarter' than me.

There's no way as a Christian I'd ever subscribe to the arrogant idea that my limited understanding could fully understand God, or even this particular aspect (though I can try). In your infinite human smartness, please explain to me exactly how a being who is by definition outside of time would see time, what that would look like, and what the exact implications would be as viewed from the natural universe. Please do it exactly and without using analogies or theories, then please, please tell me that you know exactly what the results would be related to free will with absolute certainty because, obviously, you've observed and tested all of the potential mind-bending discussions that can possibly be had on this subject. Please also articulate to me based on your own perspective and knowledge what it would be like to know everything there is to know and what that would look like exactly. (there's no way to do what I just described, so that paragraph is rhetorical)

You honestly think you have the one bulletproof argument on free will as it relates to a God you don't even believe in or study? You think any argument that disagrees with yours has no mertis at all? C'mon, man, that's not realistic. I still don't understand why you insist on trying to use your heavy handed, pre-framed arguments to somehow talk people of faith out of their faith. There is absolutely nothing you could say or do on an online forum to convince me that you're right on the issue of faith. I'm open to debates and enjoy them, but there's a point where we should just agree to disagree without assuming the other is dense. This is one of those points. I respect your opinion, and I can see your points, but I disagree. That's not going to change.



Gamerace said:
At the risk of sounding like a crack-pot, I had these same questions until I had an encounter with the creator.
Instantly I realized that it was all vain folly and we have as much capacity to understand Him as an ant has of understanding NYC. An ant could deduce people are busy going to work (as it is) but not all the ants in all of history combined could ever understand the social/economic/political realities of NYC. It's simply beyond them. To an even greater degree the Creator is beyond humankinds understanding.

I understand why the Bible says no one can look on the 'face' of God, even the tiniest reveal I got blew my mind so completely, was so far beyond my wildest imaginings I thought for sure I'd just gone crazy - and never ever wanted to be sane again. I understand why angels sing. Glory beyond glory.

I can't explain and I no longer try to find explanation. I just know and accept that He is. My life is better for it.

Or like a goldfish empregnated with whale sperm (as a former pastor of mine used to say). LOL, I always loved that description!



timmah said:

 In your infinite human smartness, please explain to me exactly how a being who is by definition outside of time would see time, what that would look like, and what the exact implications would be as viewed from the natural universe.

So your argument is that God can't see time? That would void omniscience. Try again, timmah.



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dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:

 In your infinite human smartness, please explain to me exactly how a being who is by definition outside of time would see time, what that would look like, and what the exact implications would be as viewed from the natural universe.

So your argument is that God can't see time? That would void omniscience. Try again, timmah.

Wait, what? Where in the world did you get that?? Outside does not by definition mean 'cannot see', and in this case it's the exact opposite. I'm starting to think you see what you want to see in my points, then fill in the blanks with whatever best fits your views... and you're reeeeeaaaaaaalllllly reaching here. If a satellite is 'outside' the atmosphere it can actually see and 'know' or 'understand' the surface of the earth and the atmosphere much better than from a vantage point on the ground, keep in mind I was talking about perspective here. That was in interesting interpretation.

EDIT: Phrases like 'getting an outside opinion', 'looking at the big picture', 'taking a step back', etc. refer to similarly getting a better viewpoint from OUTSIDE a situation, hence outside in this case means more complete, better perspective, and seeing more, not less or nothing.



timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:

 In your infinite human smartness, please explain to me exactly how a being who is by definition outside of time would see time, what that would look like, and what the exact implications would be as viewed from the natural universe.

So your argument is that God can't see time? That would void omniscience. Try again, timmah.

Wait, what? Where in the world did you get that?? Outside does not by definition mean 'cannot see', and in this case it's the exact opposite. I'm starting to think you see what you want to see in my points, then fill in the blanks with whatever best fits your views... and you're reeeeeaaaaaaalllllly reaching here. If a sattelite is 'outside' the atmosphere it can actually see and 'know' or 'understand' the surface of the earth and the atmosphere much better than from a vantage point on the ground, keep in mind I was talking about perspective here. That was in interesting interpretation.

Well, I took your exact statement. This one (Here I bolded it for you):

timmah said:

 In your infinite human smartness, please explain to me exactly how a being who is by definition outside of time would see time, what that would look like, and what the exact implications would be as viewed from the natural universe.

And now you're asking me why I said that. I mean you're the one that said it. Not me. "please explain to me exactly how god would see time". Your exact words with one substitution "god" for "a being who is by definition outside of time".


dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:

 In your infinite human smartness, please explain to me exactly how a being who is by definition outside of time would see time, what that would look like, and what the exact implications would be as viewed from the natural universe.

So your argument is that God can't see time? That would void omniscience. Try again, timmah.

Wait, what? Where in the world did you get that?? Outside does not by definition mean 'cannot see', and in this case it's the exact opposite. I'm starting to think you see what you want to see in my points, then fill in the blanks with whatever best fits your views... and you're reeeeeaaaaaaalllllly reaching here. If a sattelite is 'outside' the atmosphere it can actually see and 'know' or 'understand' the surface of the earth and the atmosphere much better than from a vantage point on the ground, keep in mind I was talking about perspective here. That was in interesting interpretation.

Well, I took your exact statement. This one (Here I bolded it for you):

timmah said:

 In your infinite human smartness, please explain to me exactly how a being who is by definition outside of time would see time, what that would look like, and what the exact implications would be as viewed from the natural universe.

And now you're asking me why I said that. I mean you're the one that said it. Not me. "please explain to me exactly how god would see time". Your exact words with one substitution "god" for "a being who is by definition outside of time".

You didn't in any way take my exact statement. You made an absolutely insane leap regarding the word 'outside' in order to create a fictitious argument that suits your point.

Again, Outside does not mean 'cannot see' in any sense of the word. Your statement was about the most asinine thing I've heard anybody say in a while.

EDIT: Also, notice my statement assumed He would see time, as I asked how he would see it from his unique vantage point (meaning in what manner, or what it would look like).



timmah said:

You didn't in any way take my exact statement. You made an absolutely insane leap regarding the word 'outside' in order to create a fictitious argument that suits your point.

Again, Outside does not mean 'cannot see' in any sense of the word. Your statement was about the most asinine thing I've heard anybody say in a while.

EDIT: Also, notice my statement assumed He would see time, as I asked how he would see it from his unique vantage point (meaning in what manner, or what it would look like).

So instead of answering my original question - how a deterministic path can exist with free will, you now want me to answer an unanswerable question? You want me to speculate on how an omniscient being views time?

Right...and I'm the pigeon holer...lmfao.

An omniscient being would view time in only one way - the way we view it because it is the Universal truth - bound by the Laws of the Universe. Snow globe comes to mind. 

Deterministic path cannot exist with free will - please address this without expanding the argument.



Jay520 said:
Gamerace said:
At the risk of sounding like a crack-pot, I had these same questions until I had an encounter with the creator.
Instantly I realized that it was all vain folly and we have as much capacity to understand Him as an ant has of understanding NYC. An ant could deduce people are busy going to work (as it is) but not all the ants in all of history combined could ever understand the social/economic/political realities of NYC. It's simply beyond them. To an even greater degree the Creator is beyond humankinds understanding.

I understand why the Bible says no one can look on the 'face' of God, even the tiniest reveal I got blew my mind so completely, was so far beyond my wildest imaginings I thought for sure I'd just gone crazy - and never ever wanted to be sane again. I understand why angels sing. Glory beyond glory.

I can't explain and I no longer try to find explanation. I just know and accept that He is. My life is better for it.


But do you believe in those characteristics?

Based on my experience:

 

1. The Creator is all-powerful - When Moses asks  God his name He replies 'I am' and that matches my experience.  Everything that exists, everything that is, is a part of him.  Including those planes of existance our most advanced mathmatics are only beginning to hint at.

2. The Creator is all-knowing - Jesus said 'every hair on your head is counted'.  I would go further - every molecule in you, me and everything to the furthest reaches of space is known - intimently.

3. The Creator is all-loving - We are not apart from, we are a part of.  God loves us as he Loves himself  (and unlike some of us humans, he has a healthy self-image) :)

4. The Creator is everywhere - He is.  All that is, is a part of Him.   The best way I can describe is we are akin to the cells in my big toe wondering these same things.  I step on them and keep them in the dark most of the time, but I love them and they absolute serve a purpose they could never concieve.  As far as they are concerned - I am the whole of what is.

5. There's only one Creator - To our realm of existance - yes.  However, I feel that He is so big, so inconcievable we only understand Him is little parts.   Like the 3 blind man and the elephant.  One bumps into the trunk and says' we've hit a vine', the next into the leg and says, 'no idiot, it's a tree', the third into the body and says 'no fools, it's a wall'.   To their own perspectives they are all right.   Even biblically God is experienced in different parts - The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.    God loves us all, and I don't think he cares what we call him or how exactly we percieve him (and even within one faith there's lots of interpretation - none of which is 100% right).   So he may be percieved as multiple and out of his endless grace may even respond as such, but in the end, He is.

6. The Creator has a plan for humanity - We are a part of a greater design.  Where it all leads to ultimately is beyond me.  But He knows us and hears us and wants us to succeed but sometimes in our limited thinking we're working at cross purposes and wondering why He isn't helping.

7. Many more that I can't think of...