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Forums - General - Why do some believe these characteristics of a Creator?

timmah said:

If God can view time from a non-fixed perspective (the axiom in the argument I posed), this is simply not the case (just as a theoretical time traveler would not have to pre-determine a choice to witness it, thereby knowing it without pre-determining it). You simply refuse to consider that axiom. Again, I don't know how God works, I'm just posing a theoretical possibility based on one theological perspective.

And please, don't patronize my intelligence on this. Plenty of brilliant men have theorized a ton of different ideas on time as a dimension, spacetime, whether time is fixed in reality, or merely by our perspective of it, whether it flows, or if this is simply our way of interpreting it, whether all things in time exist simultaneously, or if there is one fixed point of existence in time that is absolute, whether time has an arrow, or if it is theoretically possible for travel through it, whether dimensions/realities can exist outside of time, whether time can be bent by gravity or speed, etc. etc. etc.

Once again, it does not matter how God views time. What matters is that all outcomes are known which is predetermination. What is so hard to grasp here? Time travel has nothing to do with God. 

There are things that are no longer speculation in terms of time - 1) You don't move backward. 2) Gravity does indeed bend time - relativity 3) It is absolutely possible to travel through it forward (we do it every day).

Now tell me if you can choose A or C. 



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Chrizum said:

Yes. God made me with free will. Irregardless of whatever it is I choose in the future. I accept that. Now, even though his knowledge about my choice isn't the basis of my creation, he still knows my choices, right? Like, hypothethically, if I were to ask God, and if he had to answer truthfully, he would say to me that he knows which choice I'm going to make. Do you agree or disagree with this?

Yes, he would. (I agree with you)



happydolphin said:
Chrizum said:

Yes. God made me with free will. Irregardless of whatever it is I choose in the future. I accept that. Now, even though his knowledge about my choice isn't the basis of my creation, he still knows my choices, right? Like, hypothethically, if I were to ask God, and if he had to answer truthfully, he would say to me that he knows which choice I'm going to make. Do you agree or disagree with this?

Yes, he would. (I agree with you)

Okay. So, logically, there is no way I can choose A now, as God already knows I'd choose B. While I feel I have a choice, as I can choose A or B, that choice in reality is an illusion, because the only possible outcome is B. Now, I'm not saying God has determined that I will choose B. He may not have influenced the scenario at all. But my "choice" is predetermined. Free will is an illusion.



Some physicists say that life itself is an illusion and that nothing actually exists until it's observed. The thing is, people are missing a lot of information, and with the few pieces of the puzzle that you do have, you're seeing the wrong picture.

 

@Cheebee:  I'm not religious at all, but, when you have consciousness, when you think about it, it basically has the same properties you'd expect god to have.  At the very least, it means that consciousness is playing a good trick on itself.



Chrizum said:

Okay. So, logically, there is no way I can choose A now, as God already knows I'd choose B. While I feel I have a choice, as I can choose A or B, that choice in reality is an illusion, because the only possible outcome is B. Now, I'm not saying God has determined that I will choose B. He may not have influenced the scenario at all. But my "choice" is predetermined. Free will is an illusion.

It's as real to you as it was to God when he made you. That's why I said that though he knows, it doesn't matter.



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happydolphin said:
Chrizum said:

Okay. So, logically, there is no way I can choose A now, as God already knows I'd choose B. While I feel I have a choice, as I can choose A or B, that choice in reality is an illusion, because the only possible outcome is B. Now, I'm not saying God has determined that I will choose B. He may not have influenced the scenario at all. But my "choice" is predetermined. Free will is an illusion.

It's as real to you as it was to God when he made you. That's why I said that though he knows, it doesn't matter.

I'm sorry, but I feel like you are deliberately talking gibberish now in a discussion that is about logic.



Chrizum said:
happydolphin said:
Chrizum said:

Yes. God made me with free will. Irregardless of whatever it is I choose in the future. I accept that. Now, even though his knowledge about my choice isn't the basis of my creation, he still knows my choices, right? Like, hypothethically, if I were to ask God, and if he had to answer truthfully, he would say to me that he knows which choice I'm going to make. Do you agree or disagree with this?

Yes, he would. (I agree with you)

Okay. So, logically, there is no way I can choose A now, as God already knows I'd choose B. While I feel I have a choice, as I can choose A or B, that choice in reality is an illusion, because the only possible outcome is B. Now, I'm not saying God has determined that I will choose B. He may not have influenced the scenario at all. But my "choice" is predetermined. Free will is an illusion.

You can choose A, you just didn't.



dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:

If God can view time from a non-fixed perspective (the axiom in the argument I posed), this is simply not the case (just as a theoretical time traveler would not have to pre-determine a choice to witness it, thereby knowing it without pre-determining it). You simply refuse to consider that axiom. Again, I don't know how God works, I'm just posing a theoretical possibility based on one theological perspective.

And please, don't patronize my intelligence on this. Plenty of brilliant men have theorized a ton of different ideas on time as a dimension, spacetime, whether time is fixed in reality, or merely by our perspective of it, whether it flows, or if this is simply our way of interpreting it, whether all things in time exist simultaneously, or if there is one fixed point of existence in time that is absolute, whether time has an arrow, or if it is theoretically possible for travel through it, whether dimensions/realities can exist outside of time, whether time can be bent by gravity or speed, etc. etc. etc.

Once again, it does not matter how God views time. What matters is that all outcomes are known which is predetermination. What is so hard to grasp here? Time travel has nothing to do with God. 

There are things that are no longer speculation in terms of time - 1) You don't move backward. 2) Gravity does indeed bend time - relativity 3) It is absolutely possible to travel through it forward (we do it every day).

Now tell me if you can choose A or C. 

Time travel would be the best humanly understandable analogy to a God who is theoretically outside of time and views time from a non-fixed perspective. If you actually considered the time traveler analogy (which is a core part of the axiom I presented), what I'm saying makes sense.

Obviously, I could chose A or C, I just did not in this scenario. The fact that God observed the choice does not mean I did not make the choice. He didn't make me choose it, I chose it, he observed. The fact that this choice is in the past, present, or future would have no bearing to an observer with a non-fixed perspective of time in either the time traveler analogy, or the frozen river analogy of time.



timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:

Once again, it does not matter how God views time. What matters is that all outcomes are known which is predetermination. What is so hard to grasp here? Time travel has nothing to do with God. 

There are things that are no longer speculation in terms of time - 1) You don't move backward. 2) Gravity does indeed bend time - relativity 3) It is absolutely possible to travel through it forward (we do it every day).

Now tell me if you can choose A or C. 

Time travel would be the best humanly understandable analogy to a God who is theoretically outside of time and views time from a non-fixed perspective. If you actually considered the time traveler analogy (which is a core part of the axiom I presented), what I'm saying makes sense.

Obviously, I could chose A or C, I just did not in this scenario. The fact that God observed the choice does not mean I did not make the choice. He didn't make me choose it, I chose it, he observed. The fact that this choice is in the past, present, or future would have no bearing to an observer with a non-fixed perspective of time in either the time traveler analogy, or the frozen river analogy of time.

You make absolutely no sense. You cannot choose A or C in this scenario because it is already known that you WILL choose B, the only variable is WHEN.



Chrizum said:
happydolphin said:
Chrizum said:

Okay. So, logically, there is no way I can choose A now, as God already knows I'd choose B. While I feel I have a choice, as I can choose A or B, that choice in reality is an illusion, because the only possible outcome is B. Now, I'm not saying God has determined that I will choose B. He may not have influenced the scenario at all. But my "choice" is predetermined. Free will is an illusion.

It's as real to you as it was to God when he made you. That's why I said that though he knows, it doesn't matter.

I'm sorry, but I feel like you are deliberately talking gibberish now in a discussion that is about logic.

This is what he does. He's already admitted that he was doing it to me earlier in this very thread.